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  1. Beiträge anzeigen #21
    Knight Commander Avatar von dark-cz-klaw
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    Zitat Zitat von Omid- Beitrag anzeigen
    You mean the wrong and the right side?
    Ask yourself, who determines what are the "wrong" side and "right" sides. On what grounds?

  2. Beiträge anzeigen #22
    Dragonslayer Avatar von Omid-
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    Zitat Zitat von dark-cz-klaw Beitrag anzeigen
    Ask yourself, who determines what are the "wrong" side and "right" sides. On what grounds?
    On factual grounds?

  3. Beiträge anzeigen #23
    General Avatar von KGS
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    Zitat Zitat von dark-cz-klaw Beitrag anzeigen
    Ask yourself, who determines what are the "wrong" side and "right" sides. On what grounds?
    you, on the grounds of the little prism of perception, experience, belief, (in)sanity, hopes and desires you are holding before your eyes
    I is right, whoever says that I isn't right will have to retreat to some substitute of I (like God)

  4. Beiträge anzeigen #24
    General Avatar von ICFabian
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    Zitat Zitat von Omid- Beitrag anzeigen
    On factual grounds?
    Only when it comes to facts and theory.

    On practical grounds, no-one is right. Take war, for example. Neither sides can be right, but because of nationalism, each side will see their own efforts as right and just.

    Narrowing it down to right and wrong, us and them, is pretty much incompatible with how the real world works.
    Ich habe die Welt schon zweimal gerettet... jetzt bist du an der Reihe.

  5. Beiträge anzeigen #25
    banned
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    Assassin of Kings ist offline
    Zitat Zitat von dark-cz-klaw Beitrag anzeigen
    Ask yourself, who determines what are the "wrong" side and "right" sides.
    This is true with practically everything. The world itself doesn't work with extremes, such as right or wrong as the line between them is a very thin one.. It all depends on the individual's perspective. What's right for one may be wrong for another one, and the other way around.
    Geändert von Assassin of Kings (12.05.2011 um 20:50 Uhr)

  6. Beiträge anzeigen #26
    Local Hero
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    Zitat Zitat von Faby Beitrag anzeigen
    Only when it comes to facts and theory.

    On practical grounds, no-one is right. Take war, for example. Neither sides can be right, but because of nationalism, each side will see their own efforts as right and just.

    Narrowing it down to right and wrong, us and them, is pretty much incompatible with how the real world works.
    W W II ! Hitler's Nazi regime tried to wipe out all Jews! Genocide! Right or wrong? How do you justify the eradication of an entire race?

  7. Beiträge anzeigen #27
    General Avatar von KGS
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    Zitat Zitat von Cyclops1953 Beitrag anzeigen
    How do you justify the eradication of an entire race?
    by saying that you are making mankind better, so did he, and people believed him

  8. Beiträge anzeigen #28
    General Avatar von ICFabian
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    Zitat Zitat von Cyclops1953 Beitrag anzeigen
    W W II ! Hitler's Nazi regime tried to wipe out all Jews! Genocide! Right or wrong? How do you justify the eradication of an entire race?
    I rather doubt it that people fought Germany (just) because of all the Jew burnings.
    Ich habe die Welt schon zweimal gerettet... jetzt bist du an der Reihe.

  9. Beiträge anzeigen #29
    banned
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    Zitat Zitat von Cyclops1953 Beitrag anzeigen
    W W II ! Hitler's Nazi regime tried to wipe out all Jews! Genocide! Right or wrong?
    From our point of view - wrong. From the Nazi's point of view - right. Just as I was saying, it all depends on how each one of us sees it.

  10. Beiträge anzeigen #30
    Dragonslayer Avatar von Powaz
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    Zitat Zitat von KGS Beitrag anzeigen
    by saying that you are making mankind better, so did he, and people believed him
    Sure, that's ideology, but there's no objective justification a la Faby's point, of how it all waters down to perception. It's the worse kind of obscenity to claim that let's say Holocaust is neither right or wrong - the most idiotic relativism. There's nothing to seperate in truth because it only has the objective dimension. Truth is by essence an objective fact, opinion/subjective perception is not a form of truth.

    There's is no relativism in Truth. Truth is the Absolute.

    Zitat Zitat von Assassin of Kings Beitrag anzeigen
    From our point of view - wrong. From the Nazi's point of view - right. Just as I was saying, it all depends on how each one of us sees it.
    And here we go justifying nazi crimes. Good job.

    Zitat Zitat von Faby Beitrag anzeigen
    I rather doubt it that people fought Germany (just) because of all the Jew burnings.
    completely besides the point of his argumentation.
    Geändert von Powaz (13.05.2011 um 15:00 Uhr)

  11. Beiträge anzeigen #31
    General Avatar von ICFabian
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    Zitat Zitat von Powaz Beitrag anzeigen
    It's the worse kind of obscenity to claim that let's say Holocaust is neither right or wrong - the most idiotic relativism.
    Because they didn't fight back, right?

    Would we have the same perception of the Jew massacres if they had fought? Would we have the same perception if the Jews had actually done something wrong?

    I am in no way on Earth defending the Nazis and their deeds, but there have been deaths, useless deaths, innocent deaths even before the Holocaust, and you don't see those being lamented everywhere.

    A human life is worth the same, and so is human death.
    Ich habe die Welt schon zweimal gerettet... jetzt bist du an der Reihe.

  12. Beiträge anzeigen #32
    Dragonslayer Avatar von Powaz
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    Zitat Zitat von Faby Beitrag anzeigen
    Because they didn't fight back, right?

    Would we have the same perception of the Jew massacres if they had fought? Would we have the same perception if the Jews had actually done something wrong?
    Fundamentally worthless post. Sorry. If jews tried to wipe out an entire nation - of course they would be the criminals. What's your point?

    I am in no way on Earth defending the Nazis and their deeds
    But you are

    , but there have been deaths, useless deaths, innocent deaths even before the Holocaust, and you don't see those being lamented everywhere.
    Holocaust is not in the field of freedom of opinions nor are any other mass killings.

    About war. Let's take WW2, which side was the right one? Nazis or the Allies? There can't even be a question.
    Geändert von Powaz (13.05.2011 um 15:20 Uhr)

  13. Beiträge anzeigen #33
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    Zitat Zitat von Powaz Beitrag anzeigen
    Sure, that's ideology, but there's no objective justification a la Faby's point, of how it all waters down to perception. It's the worse kind of obscenity to claim that let's say Holocaust is neither right or wrong - the most idiotic relativism.
    I don't want to justify or approve of the Nazi's doings, but why are you so radical about this? From the vast majority of people (sane ones)'s point of view, Holocaust is wrong. But from the perspective of those that were behind it, it's right. By saying that I don't justify the Nazi's crimes, I'm just pointing out that the right or wrong notions are just a thing of the way we perceive reality.

  14. Beiträge anzeigen #34
    Dragonslayer Avatar von Powaz
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    In the eyes of those who believed in their ideology Holocaust was the right thing, but The Truth is not on the side of their opinion and in no way justified by relativism. They denied The Truth when they chose to do the killings. And there can't be any justification for their doings.

    The subjective notions of right or wrong come from our ideological background. But tell me how can someone call Holocaust neither right or wrong? By saying this we actually support the crime, we deny the crime itself.

    The Truth in itself and for itself is the Absolute and forbids us to relativise, if we do it anyway, we are wrong.
    Geändert von Powaz (13.05.2011 um 15:49 Uhr)

  15. Beiträge anzeigen #35
    General Avatar von ICFabian
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    @Powaz: This is clearly an emotional subject for you, so I'll withdraw from discussing it. If you cannot even endeavour to bear in mind different viewpoints without calling people Nazi-enablers, then that is entirely your problem.
    Ich habe die Welt schon zweimal gerettet... jetzt bist du an der Reihe.

  16. Beiträge anzeigen #36
    Skinhead  Avatar von Hellbilly
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    Zitat Zitat von Powaz Beitrag anzeigen
    The Truth is not on the side of their opinion and in no way justified by relativism
    And you elevate yourself above others by claiming to know what the "Truth" is. And without providing anything more substantial than saying "because I say so".

    You may be right in that the Truth is objective and all sorts of relativism have nothing to do with truth. The problem is, how can we tell what is truth and what is not? Certainly prevalent morals, such as ones condemnding genocide, are not it, as then it would be painfully true that truth is indeed relative for the obvious reason that prevalent morals and ethics have varied greatly from time to time.

    It is neither denying nor supporting the crime to say that the Holocaust is neither right nor wrong by some sort of multiversal, all-encompassing ultimate moral, or because of the lack of such a thing. It would turn into supporting it when one says that "oh yeah, and it was a good thing they did it", and into denying when one'd say "oh yeah, and besides, it never happened". Because, you see, relativism in itself doesn't mean one won't condemn it as wrong. It just means a less holier-than-thou and less condescending approach to understanding the how's and why's that led to it happening, among other things; it means not writing it off as evil from the go and then proceeding from that to attribute the facts with values of evil, but starting from facts and proceeding to reach a conclusion that it was evil (or, in some cases, good).

    And if your basis of saying it can never be "good" or even "neutral" is that innocents were killed (en masse), which is the only thing approaching an argument against it discernible from your post(s), then you condemned nature itself as evil, and then, nothing matters. We are all inherently evil, incapable of good, and as such, it is nothing but an academic excercise without foundation in reality to discuss this thing. Because, contrary to popular belief and teh intarwebz arguments, animals do not kill just to sustain/themselves - many species kill and let their kill go to waste.

  17. Beiträge anzeigen #37
    General Avatar von KGS
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    The truth that you speak about is beyond human reach
    everything is subjective,
    claiming that you know The Truth just shows how proud of your viewpoint you are but it doesn't change anything
    for different people different things are right

    i think the holocaust was not a good think to happen, however i cannot deny that WW 2 shaped modern world the way it is and i do not regret it, for some people it takes a war to realize they are living and society today is deprived even of this

  18. Beiträge anzeigen #38
    Dragonslayer Avatar von Omid-
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    Zitat Zitat von KGS Beitrag anzeigen
    The truth that you speak about is beyond human reach
    everything is subjective,
    claiming that you know The Truth just shows how proud of your viewpoint you are but it doesn't change anything
    for different people different things are right
    That's bull.

  19. Beiträge anzeigen #39
    General Avatar von ICFabian
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    Zitat Zitat von Omid- Beitrag anzeigen
    That's bull.
    It's not.

    Facts can be objective. Information is. People need to eat and breathe to live.

    But complex matters like wars and politics and morality are not facts, are not set in stone and can vary from case to case.
    Ich habe die Welt schon zweimal gerettet... jetzt bist du an der Reihe.

  20. Beiträge anzeigen #40
    Dragonslayer Avatar von Omid-
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    Zitat Zitat von Faby Beitrag anzeigen
    It's not.
    Right, sorry. I failed step 1 in posting: Read carefully.

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