[Assassin of Kings]

Games are an art!!. If they are a bit more complex than Mineswiper..

And also if they are original and have a good story. Arcania is more complex than Minesweeper, but it's still kitsch and not art.

[Onisuzume]

I think the level of writing is a bit higher than that, particularly since GTA IV.

I beg your pardon?
There's been much better games than GTA4 when it comes to the writing.
Planescape: Torment springs to mind as an example.

Is it possible for a computer game to have the intellectual heft and emotional impact of a good book while remaining as captivating as a well-paced film? If so, the first candidate may well be Planescape: Torment.

[one-cool]

art is a creative expression. But if you gather lots of creative expressions and put them into a package, is that actually art?

Or to say more let's start with the thing art itself:
1. Art as in the product of human creativity, in this sense everything can be art - from carpentry to video games.
2. The Arts, a broad group of expressive crafts or disciplines, they include dance, sculpture, poetry, cinema etc.
3. Contemporary art (this is not some sort of an official term or anything, but it'll do), which is a mish-mash of everything with a certain mindset, there's no clear definition of art in that regard, but basically if you present it as art, it'll be regarded as such here. Several contemporary artists have presented their works as games or other interactive installations, some in video format (if that's enough for you, as it's basically interactive media). You could say it should go as part of the previous definition, as it grew from the visual arts, but I think it should be here as it's often referred to as just art.

But why is it art?

Is it beautiful? Yes, very much so, and as said, it shows a high level of craftmanship. But for something to be art, you need say something with it.

A portrait can be doubt, no doubt about it. It can be a statement of how to look upon the world, in contrast and as counter-argument to more abstract paintings, but it really depends upon its time and message. Nowadays, I don't think anyone would see a portrait as something provocative...

And just to underline an important fact: just because a medium can be art, it does not make all works of the medium art. Not all books, paintings, movies etc. are art. Just like games, many of these works are created, are crafted to entertain or to beautify. The end-user has been considered and the work has been sculpted for this. Then it is just a work of craftmanship, not a work of art.

Art is not just something beautiful - art is something meaningful.

[Assassin of Kings]

Art is not just something beautiful - art is something meaningful.

There are games that have a strong message as well. For example, games such a Gothic, which belong to the fantasy genre teach us about the battle between good and evil and how there will always be opposing forces in the world and you have to make sacrifices in order to keep the balance. Even GTA has a message, for example, in GTA 4, that making the wrong choices in life will bring you sufferance and the loss of the loved ones.
On the other hand, first person shooters, racing games or real time strategy games don't have any message at all and they're just for entertainment

[Bastardo]

I beg your pardon?
There's been much better games than GTA4 when it comes to the writing.

This information rocks my world.

WHY GTA, WHY! Why aren't you the best at everything and beyond?

[Sakabato]

There are games that have a strong message as well. For example, games such a Gothic, which belong to the fantasy genre teach us about the battle between good and evil and how there will always be opposing forces in the world and you have to make sacrifices in order to keep the balance. Even GTA has a message, for example, in GTA 4, that making the wrong choices in life will bring you sufferance and the loss of the loved ones.
On the other hand, first person shooters, racing games or real time strategy games don't have any message at all and they're just for entertainment

Ha! ha! funny, how you put things.
Gothic teaches us a lot, indeed, GTA even more. While strategy games don't..
I'll quote you "teach us about the battle between good and evil and how there will always be opposing forces in the world and you have to make sacrifices in order to keep balance" I always figure it out that the world\universe works in much more deeper ways then that, but I guess you are just naive..
"Even GTA has a message, for example, in GTA 4, that making the wrong choices in life will bring you sufferance and the loss of the loved ones." Oh, how touching..I always thought that was just a marketing move, like most generic action movies.
And you talk about strategy games, let's see. If you take a game like TotalWar, where you can actually lead massive armies, build formations, charge or retreat as you order, take your cavalry to break spearman ranks by the flank, totally destroying their unit and making them flee, learn with the enimy's strategy(specially if they are players as well, over the Internet), and so on. Now if you are a lover of battles such as "Battle of Thermopylae", "Hannibal of Carthage" and from "Spartacus", you will see such games as a way to improve your tactical skills, and more important, your mind as well.
About shooters, I can't say the same thing, but you aren't right either. Shooters like Call Of Duty, have a great story that takes place in the Second great World War, and Modern Warfare which takes place somewhere in the modern days.
Being generic, as to say shooters and strategy games don't have messages, is simple minded, and ignorant, now take it as you want.

Stay cool... ; )

[Hellbilly]

As a sidenote - (IIRC) Ebert said something to the effect that there is no computer game we can, according to him that is, compare to the greatest of classical poems or literary works, or classic paintings, or classic compositions. All right, maybe he is correct, but then - how many modern paintings, poems, literary works and compositions can we compare to those without the modern counterparts paling completely? Very few, so few in fact it almost approaches none (depending a bit on the field) - so does that mean that they are not art then? Or are they art only by the virtue of being part of a discipline or form of expression that contains "real" art? In which case any doodle or shitty fanfic would be a genuine work of art to rival the giants, of course.

But obviously the concensus is that there is modern art despite it not being as high and awesome and über and totally elite as them Michelavincitellos, and trite Potter-on-Malfoy manlove fanfic is not art to rival the Iliad. As such, if we do not discriminate forms of expression, we should compare computer games to a general standard of art not bound to individual examples of what is considered "real art". By that standard, there are a few games I would call a true art; Tetris, Qix, Civ, and some others, innovative and simply beautiful games that are entertaining and ingenious, and stimulate. Tetris and Qix are both seemingly simple games, but they take their simple concepts and make something beautifully complex, stimulating and captivating from it - rather like a good exponent of modern visual art.

[ICFabian]

For example, games such a Gothic, which belong to the fantasy genre teach us about the battle between good and evil and how there will always be opposing forces in the world and you have to make sacrifices in order to keep the balance.

Since when?

That's the most cursory/shallow interpretation of the Gothic storyline I have ever seen.

Gothic is all about the roughness, the grey, the ambiguous morality, the choices you must make and stick to. It's about surviving and thriving in a world of violence and crime, and witnessing a once glorious kingdom flail under the clutches of evil.

[Assassin of Kings]

That's the most cursory/shallow interpretation of the Gothic storyline I have ever seen.

I guess it is silly now that I read it again. I tried to make a summary of the storyline. I think the real message of the games is in the words Xardas says at the end of Gothic 2, that not even the gods know what fate is in store for the humans, that each man forges his own destiny.

[one-cool]

There are games that have a strong message as well. For example, games such a Gothic, which belong to the fantasy genre teach us about the battle between good and evil and how there will always be opposing forces in the world and you have to make sacrifices in order to keep the balance.

I'm not quite sure why delivering a message must be the reason why this should be art. Being meaningful does not mean having a message to tell. It could be, but it mustn't. And especially this message you are talking about is so common in like every game that it's not meaningful anymore.

Let's say I'd copy the Mona Lisa precisely. Is that art? What exactly is art there - the copying process or the painting itself? What if I did that a thousand times? What's the art then? Just the original? Each individual painting? The sum?
Can a word be art? Can a plant be art?

But obviously the concensus is that there is modern art despite it not being as high and awesome and über and totally elite as them Michelavincitellos, and trite Potter-on-Malfoy manlove fanfic is not art to rival the Iliad. As such, if we do not discriminate forms of expression, we should compare computer games to a general standard of art not bound to individual examples of what is considered "real art". By that standard, there are a few games I would call a true art; Tetris, Qix, Civ, and some others, innovative and simply beautiful games that are entertaining and ingenious, and stimulate. Tetris and Qix are both seemingly simple games, but they take their simple concepts and make something beautifully complex, stimulating and captivating from it - rather like a good exponent of modern visual art.

I agree to this.
A good example for a game I also would call art is The Graveyard
The animations, the movement speed, the tank controls, the art style - all of them combined give me the illusion of actually playing an old lady, and the world she is in in combination with that illusion give me all sorts of feelings and ideas, and they are very strong and meaningful

[Assassin of Kings]

I'm not quite sure why delivering a message must be the reason why this should be art. Being meaningful does not mean having a message to tell. It could be, but it mustn't. And especially this message you are talking about is so common in like every game that it's not meaningful anymore.

I was speaking about the story. The plot has to deliver a message in order to be called art. When speaking about the graphics, they can indeed be artistic even without having a message to tell. Just like a landscape painting. If it's beautiful to the eye, it's art.

[Cogwheel]

Video games are the best art ever.
They included music, pictures, story and minds.
All the ideas of developers is art.

Who sayd it is no art, has never seen art.

[KGS]

Video games are the best art ever.

nope, too shallow

[Assassin of Kings]

Video games are the best art ever.
They included music, pictures, story and minds.
All the ideas of developers is art.

Who sayd it is no art, has never seen art.

I agree with you, only that there are very few games that can really be called art. Most of them are too superficial to be called art, because the developers create it just as a blacksmith would forge a nail, which is without investing too much time and passion in their work.

[Ferrari]

Games are art, but as the user before me sayd, only a few games are art.

[Bastardo]

Right, only the ones you like.