[Th13f]

Hello captain Obvious. Our president is a looney? Sounds to me like every romanian president since Ceausescu (including Ceausescu) was a looney. The sense of responsibility and national pride hasn't been present in romanian leaders since Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej was assassinated by the KGB.

[ICFabian]

national pride hasn't been present in romanian leaders since Gheorghe Gheorghiu-Dej was assassinated by the KGB.

Thank god. Patriotism has no place whatsoever in the 21st century.

[Lazor]

Patriotism has no place whatsoever in the 21st century.

Completely agree, even though there seems to be a rise of nationalist ideas the last few decades .

[Godcrusher]

Thank god. Patriotism has no place whatsoever in the 21st century.

I disagree. True, to much patriotism is total crap. But a small amount is always welcome.

[Alwin]

I disagree. True, to much patriotism is total crap. But a small amount is always welcome.

Nah. Patriotism goes together with nationalism, which breeds hate, which leads to war, which leads to your goddamn life (and city, and circle of friends, etc...) getting ruined by artillery shells; plus nationalism is also one of the few remaining obstacles to why we "can't just all get along" and have to stay as 195 squabbling little warlords (I mean, that's probably more than we had in the Middle Ages! Talk about a step back).

[Godcrusher]

Nah. Patriotism goes together with nationalism, which breeds hate, which leads to war, which leads to your goddamn life (and city, and circle of friends, etc...) getting ruined by artillery shells; plus nationalism is also one of the few remaining obstacles to why we "can't just all get along" and have to stay as 195 squabbling little warlords (I mean, that's probably more than we had in the Middle Ages! Talk about a step back).

Like i said: to much patriotism is total crap. Modesty and all that.

[Eidolon]

Nah. Patriotism goes together with nationalism, which breeds hate, which leads to war, which leads to your goddamn life (and city, and circle of friends, etc...) getting ruined by artillery shells; plus nationalism is also one of the few remaining obstacles to why we "can't just all get along" and have to stay as 195 squabbling little warlords (I mean, that's probably more than we had in the Middle Ages! Talk about a step back).

Ah,so If I'm proud of my country that automatically means I'm a racist biggot.Damn.

Your post criticizes nationalism,which is fair,but it has very little to do with patriotism.You should read some of Aristotles works,he explains in great detail the difference between "too much","too little" and the desired ariston,perfection,which is the in between,the balance amongst the two.

[ICFabian]

Ah,so If I'm proud of my country that automatically means I'm a racist biggot.

Why pride? Or, specifically, why pride in your country of all things?

You didn't choose to be born there. And your country (in general) has nothing that the other countries do not. Yes, it has its own culture, and I understand studying and appreciating that culture, but pride usually (and unfortunately) implies arrogance, which predicates superiority.

Patriotism, in my eyes, is nothing but a watered down version of nationalism. And if you go as far as to say you appreciate and feel proud of your own country, why not the rest? Why love your own above others? It bears repetition: you did not choose to be born there.

Be proud of things you consciously achieved, not by something as arbitrary as the country you were born in.

It's one step from "proud to be Greek" to "proud to be white."

[Eidolon]

Why pride? Or, specifically, why pride in your country of all things?

Why shouldn't I be proud?I guess different people are proud to be Brits,Italians,Greeks etc. for different reasons.

When my country (talking from my point of view,as a Greek) revolted against a near-500 year old tyranny,or when it bravely held its own against the much larger Italian military force in the mountains of Albania during the WWII,I can't help but feel proud of my ancestors.Same goes for every country in the world.Reaching achievements as a collective group is the same as reaching them yourself (or to some degree,at least).

You didn't choose to be born there.

I didn't choose my parents either,should I not be proud of having great parents?Shouldn't I be proud of their own accomplishments?

but pride usually (and unfortunately) implies arrogance, which predicates superiority

NOT if you keep it (pride) in moderation.When you start believing other countries are inferior to your own,then you have crossed the line.Which leads me to my original stance,moderation is everything,and should be sought after.I never regarded,for example (again,personally speaking),the Turkish culture inferior compared to Greece's one.

Patriotism, in my eyes, is nothing but a watered down version of nationalism.

While in my eyes nationalism is the extreme side of patriotism.Nothing to add here,clearly we have different points of view so we can only agree to disagree.

And if you go as far as to say you appreciate and feel proud of your own country, why not the rest? Why love your own above others?

Because,simply,I have no emotional connection with other countries.Take my previous example of the family.I love my family.I am proud when my sister brings great marks or when my father finds a great jod.Why do I love my family above other families?Because they are my own.I did not choose them but still,I love them.Same applies for my country.

It's one step from "proud to be Greek" to "proud to be white."

It's one step from "proud to be Greek and not an albanian dog" to "proud to be white".From "proud to be Greek" I'd say many,many steps.Loving your country and not regarding it superior to all others is not bad,it's ideal,in my very,very honest opinion.

[ICFabian]

Well, fine. I concede. Both our arguments are based on emotions, so let's just, as you so aptly said, agree to disagree.

I have my views; you have yours.

[Eidolon]

Well, fine. I concede. Both our arguments are based on emotions, so let's just, as you so aptly said, agree to disagree.

I have my views; you have yours.

Seems so

[Lazor]

I disagree. I think Faby's views are far more logical than Eidolon's ones.

Eidolon, you're proud of your parents because they earned your respect.

But does modern Greece make you feel proud? Has it earned your respect?

And how logical it is to be proud of "your" country's history, of your country's past? Does it really make sense?

If your political/social beliefs are based on what your ancestors did decades/centuries ago that will one-way or another lead to racism and nationalism. And patriotism is based on our "glorious history" . What's the point of celebrating the defeat of the Turks, Albanians, Italians etc? Whatever happened, happened. No need to look on the past.

After all EVERY country's history has a black side. Even during the Greek War of Independence, and the WWII Greco-Italian War there were atrocities committed by our "fellow countrymen" (but the history is always written by the winners).

Anyways, putting the history-part aside, there's no clear definition of patriotism. But is it any good after all? I mean, (fortunately) you don't think that our neighbors are inferior to us, but why do you make this division in the first place? Dunno, I'm anti-nationalist and I clearly consider a Bulgarian, Turkish, Albanian, Macedonian, German, American, Pakistani, Iraqi (etc) and a Greek person EXACTLY the same thing. They're humans. No secondary discriminations. Just humans.

So, thumbs up for no-patriotism at all. Not even in moderation .

[Eidolon]

But does modern Greece make you feel proud? Has it earned your respect?

Of course it does.Just because our political system is flawed and our leaders incompetent doesn't mean I don't love my country.

If your political/social beliefs are based on what your ancestors did decades/centuries ago that will one-way or another lead to racism and nationalism.

Care to elaborate?You don't have any claims or evidence to back-up your theory.

What's the point of celebrating the defeat of the Turks, Albanians, Italians etc?

I believe that you misunderstood me.No'one is celebrating the defeat of Turks,Italians et cetera.Instead,they celebrate the brave efforts of men that put freedom above their lives.Think of it this way.If people didn't feel they were Greeks,then why bother revolting against the Turks?If the Irish didn't feel part of an Irish country,why bother revolting against the British?

Whatever happened, happened. No need to look on the past.

The past is the past,indeed,there is no need in keeping grudges against former enemy countries.That does not mean,however,that all the sacrifices our ancestors made so you and I can live in a free country should be forgotten.

After all EVERY country's history has a black part. Even during the Greek War of Independence, and the WWII Greco-Italian War there were atrocities committed by our "fellow countrymen" (but the history is always written by the winners)

Of course,we always have to judge history regardless of the winner's point of view and refrain from turning a blind eye on our own country's faults.I don't see though how objective historical accuracy has to do with our current topic of discussion.Just as you would feel proud of your country's accomplishments,shame should take its place when that's justified.

Dunno, I'm anti-nationalist and I clearly consider a Bulgarian, Turkish, Albanian, Macedonian, German, American, Iraqi (etc) and a Greek person EXACTLY the same thing. They're humans. No secondary discriminations. Just humans.

I am anti-nationalism myself,as is (I hope) most of society.I never claimed that humans aren't all equal,far from it actually.As I said before:Loving your country and not regarding it superior to all others is not bad,it's ideal,in my very,very honest opinion.

So, thumbs up for no-patriotism at all. Not even in moderation .

[Bild: 5166465451_ded900eaf8.jpg]

[Alwin]

Of course it does.Just because our political system is flawed and our leaders incompetent doesn't mean I don't love my country.

Feel free, if that's what floats your boat.

I believe that you misunderstood me.No'one is celebrating the defeat of Turks,Italians et cetera.Instead,they celebrate the brave efforts of men that put freedom above their lives.Think of it this way.If people didn't feel they were Greeks,then why bother revolting against the Turks?If the Irish didn't feel part of an Irish country,why bother revolting against the British?

You're making it sound like the revolting Greeks were some kind of heroes whose moral standards were above that of the "vile infidel" who oppressed them. In reality, the only reason your ancestors gave their lives is because they chose the wrong way of finding freedom. They did it by fueling hate and dissent against the Turk, which I consider a bigger crime than oppressing these "minorities" (an exaggeration anyway, the 19th century Ottoman Empire was a relatively tolerant state as far as Islamic states were concerned).

The past is the past,indeed,there is no need in keeping grudges against former enemy countries.That does not mean,however,that all the sacrifices our ancestors made so you and I can live in a free country should be forgotten.

Their sacrifices were in vain and have probably caused more harm than good in the long run (i.e. because of nationalism - because that caused all those revolts and the downfall of the Spanish Colonial Empire; just consider how much less wars there would have been if all the South Americans would have considered themselves Spaniards back in the 18-19th century). Just because they died for their own ideals doesn't mean they were heroes. By that analogy, Hitler was a hero and all Germans should remember his heroic exploits. Well, he's remembered alright, but you get the point.

Of course,we always have to judge history regardless of the winner's point of view and refrain from turning a blind eye on our own country's faults.I don't see though how objective historical accuracy has to do with our current topic of discussion.Just as you would feel proud of your country's accomplishments,shame should take its place when that's justified.

I don't feel proud of the fact that our nomadic ancestors managed to secure the Carpathian Basin in 896 - for they did so while butchering another people who lived here. I'm somewhat proud of a few historical figures who were Hungarians and have, in my opinion, done great things for humanity, but that doesn't mean I am proud of them for their nationality or care about this damn country in fact. I am also ashamed of certain people (like our current President or aforementioned ancestors) but once again, not because they are/were Hungarians but because I don't consider them benevolent. (Though to cut our ancestors some slack, they didn't have too many options, so that's forgivable to an extent.)

I am anti-nationalism myself,as is (I hope) most of society.I never claimed that humans aren't all equal,far from it actually.As I said before:Loving your country and not regarding it superior to all others is not bad,it's ideal,in my very,very honest opinion.

Humans aren't all equal as long as there are different national self-consciousnesses. For the only reason they exist is because humans are different, and not in a good way.

*pic*

Yeah, all that is just my opinion as well. I'm not trying to force anyone, though if someone is shaken in his beliefs of patriotism as a result of reading this thread, I'm a happy forumer already.

[Lazor]

Ok, I see . I talked kinda general before, 'cause I wanted to see how you "define" patriotism, and it seems like most people think of patriotism in a more "nationalistic" way than you do (unfortunately).

Anyway, as long as there's no discrimination coming along with patriotism I'm ok with it. The only thing I can't understand, and I also stated before is this:

...why do you make this division in the first place?

What's the point? Why ? What does patriotism offer to society?

And there are different words for things like justice, humanism, philanthropies, laws etc.

EDIT: +1 to Alwin. Plus, before the 18th and 19th century, the term of "nation" and "nationality" was of minor importance. National awaking was a bad thing. It was maybe the worst way Europeans could have chosen to unite and overthrow the aristocratic old system. As for the Greeks, surprisingly Alwin knows more than most of the Greeks do. First of all before the Greek Revolution the "Greek national identity" did not exist. No one considered himself to be "Greek". So saying that after 400 years the Greeks were free again is somehow odd. I mean even before the Ottomans, grecophone populations didn't consider themselves "Greek" either. They were citizens of the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire). Nevertheless, the first three centuries under the Ottoman "rule" were prosperous for the grecophone populations, something most of the modern Greeks don't know either. And only during the 18th and 19th century, with the fall of the Ottoman Empire, due to the outrageous corruption of the (greek) Tax collectors, we begun to dislike Ottomans (giving birth to our nationalistic myth of our alleged ancient Greek origins ).

[Larisa]

just consider how much less wars there would have been if all the South Americans would have considered themselves Spaniards back in the 18-19th century

Yeah, they could've united and fight the Brits.

What does patriotism offer to society?

Songs?

[Lazor]

Songs?

Along with raki fortunately, 'cause only drunk would I listen to these kind of songs (even though this one has a pretty good melody) .

[Eidolon]

You're making it sound like the revolting Greeks were some kind of heroes whose moral standards were above that of the "vile infidel" who oppressed them. In reality, the only reason your ancestors gave their lives is because they chose the wrong way of finding freedom. They did it by fueling hate and dissent against the Turk, which I consider a bigger crime than oppressing these "minorities" (an exaggeration anyway, the 19th century Ottoman Empire was a relatively tolerant state as far as Islamic states were concerned).

When your country is taken over by another empire and forced into slavery,paidomazoma (what the Turks call the Devşirme,the assimilation of greek [and other balkan] children and brainwashing them into othoman soldiers) and overall servitude ,feeling hatred towards your oppressors is kinda...normal.If the greek war of independence was the wrong way of finding freedom,well..I don't know,it seems it was pretty successful.:P

Their sacrifices were in vain and have probably caused more harm than good in the long run

How's that exactly?If that were the case,then Ireland as a country wouldn't exist.USA would still be in Britains pocket.Hungary would still be part of the Othoman empire.

Just because they died for their own ideals doesn't mean they were heroes.

I somewhat agree.Dying for their country though, makes them heroes (speaking ONLY about revolutions and state defence,in case anyone mentions Vietnam).

Hitler

It was inevitable.

I'm somewhat proud of a few historical figures who were Hungarians and have, in my opinion, done great things for humanity, but that doesn't mean I am proud of them for their nationality or care about this damn country in fact.

I am confused.You say you are (somewhat) proud of some hungarian historical figures but then you mention you don't care if they were Hungarian.Why don't you feel proud of Ghandi,Mother Teresa,Mandella etc?They have contributed greatly to humanity also.Do you respect and maybe feel gratitude to them?Of course.Do you feel proud about them?I don't think so.

[Alwin]

When your country is taken over by another empire and forced into slavery,paidomazoma (what the Turks call the Devşirme,the assimilation of greek [and other balkan] children and brainwashing them into othoman soldiers) and overall servitude ,feeling hatred towards your oppressors is kinda...normal.If the greek war of independence was the wrong way of finding freedom,well..I don't know,it seems it was pretty successful.:P

I think that's all just Greek hate-nationalistic propaganda. Of course a country would encourage its citizens to fall in line, and of course the Ottoman Empire didn't encourage his people to become Austrian soldiers. All of this seems pretty normal to me if we are to try and purge nationalism/patriotism/all this (and I am).

How's that exactly?If that were the case,then Ireland as a country wouldn't exist.USA would still be in Britains pocket.Hungary would still be part of the Othoman empire.

Correction: Hungary would still be part of Austria-Hungary. Or the Habsburg Empire, after all, less nationalism might have meant no revolution and no Ausgleich (the latter of which led to the formation of Austria-Hungary).
As for the rest of this quote: yay! Less countries! Less nationalism! Exactly what I want, thank you. I wouldn't mind living in Austria-Hungary. I wouldn't even mind living in the Ottoman Empire as long as it wasn't Islamistic in the modern sense.

I somewhat agree.Dying for their country though, makes them heroes (speaking ONLY about revolutions and state defence,in case anyone mentions Vietnam).

Yeah, I admit, defending your country is heroic,

It was inevitable.

Yes, this is a fine and witty response, but it doesn't substitute a legit answer. I think the analogy was correct, and while the law may also have been proven once again, that doesn't mean a thing. Of course, if the name "Hitler" somehow poses a problem for you, feel free to replace it with Stalin, Pol Pot, Napoleon, or your megalomaniacal dictator of choice.

I am confused.You say you are (somewhat) proud of some hungarian historical figures but then you mention you don't care if they were Hungarian.Why don't you feel proud of Ghandi,Mother Teresa,Mandella etc?They have contributed greatly to humanity also.Do you respect and maybe feel gratitude to them?Of course.Do you feel proud about them?I don't think so.

Yeah, my previous post was missing the part that I also feel proud of all the other people from other nationalities - well, in the same sense as of the Hungarians, anyways. Basically, there's no difference. I like to think of humanity as a collective body in these cases, instead of splitting them up into geographical and national groups.

[Lazor]

Eidolon... my questions is waiting for your answer !

What does patriotism offer to society?