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Rookie
Are there Bards in the Known Land of the World of Gothic?
By Bards, I'm referring more to the IRL historical Bards or Skalds of European culture, and not the magical performers of some fantasy worlds such as you find with D&D. I posted this question in a thread in one of the Steam forums, and it was a consensus Bards don't exist. From my reading of the canon given by the video games, the Gothic equivalent would be a famous poet or singing musician, who's also a member of the Ring of Water. In my eyes, it's the Water Mages of the Circle of Water and their supporting allies within the Ring of Water, who are the true keepers of lore.
I'm curious what other here think - are there, or aren't there Bards?
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nomina nuda tenemus
Bards only exist in the German language version of Gothic: A performance by the German medieval rock band In Extremo. Unfortunately, for legal reasons, it was not included in the foreign-language versions of the game.
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Abenteurer
Well, based on the game itself, we know that even in the colony there are people who can play the lute. And some of them definitely can and should be poetic natures. If we dig deeper and look at the design documents, we see mentions of minestrels, in Gomez's lines that was written for the cutscene of the quest with the assassination attempt:
//Gomez: Obgleich unsere Versorgungslage nach wie vor äußerst bescheiden ist...
//Gomez: ...haben wir uns entschieden, auch in diesem Jahr das Befreiungsfest zu feiern!
//Gomez Zu diesem Anlaß werden wir ein Festmahl bereitstellen, eigens angeliefert von der Küche des Königs.
//Gomez: Dazu werden Spielleute aufspielen, um dieses Ereignis würdig <TSCHOCK>
In addition, more recently, thanks to scripts from one of the later alpha versions (1.00b) it was possible to discover already a concrete example, of a bard/minestrel in the game. In the early versions it was supposed to be a cut-out character called Marus. He was supposed to live in the same hut that contained the chest with the book "The Lyric of Myrtana" in it. It is not known whether Marus himself is its author, but the likelihood is indeed high, as Marus was a creative nature and a lute with honey could be found in his inventory.
The lute is ofc clear, but as for the honey, here is some historical background:
"Honey is a symbol of purity, God's Word, inspiration, eloquence and poetry, the food of gods, immortals and poets. Honey was equated with the bliss of Nirvana in India and with the pleasures of paradise in China and the West. It was considered a primordially pure sacred food and served as an offering to the higher deities. A symbol of initiation, immortality and rebirth, honey was used in initiation and purification rites; it was used in memorials to the dead and as an offering to the chthonic gods.
In antique times, honey was a symbol of poetic genius, eloquence, and wisdom. Honey was said to be the honeyed mouths of Homer, Sappho and Pindar. Honey and honey drinks were the food of the immortal gods of Olympus, it was believed that they were fed to Zeus, Dionysus and Hermes. Honey was also used in the chthonic rites, where the sacrifice was made to Hecate. In the Orphic tradition, it symbolises wisdom."
Screenshots with Bard/Minestrel Marus:
[Bild: MarusPlayMusic1.00b.png]
[Bild: MyrtanaLyricRelease.png]
[Bild: MarusSleep1.00b.png]
Geändert von Voron256 (28.10.2022 um 16:03 Uhr)
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nomina nuda tenemus
Very interesting topic with this information.
So we have a "hidden" bard in the Old Camp!
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Rookie
Excellent replies - thank you!
The band Extremo did come up in my post on the Steam forums. I didn't realize the word Minstrel was ever used in-game, which from my understanding of that medieval profession is equivalent to a Bard. As I've mentioned in my other thread, I'm adapting the Gothic setting to the Das Schwarz Auge tabletop RPG. My decision to include a DSA profession is based upon whether at least one named Non-Player Character in the Gothic video games has that profession. DSA has a non-magical bard, so it's doable.
So in the Deutsch version of the game we have a named minstrel Marus - excellent. That meets my criteria of a profession portrayed by a named NPC. I had already decided to include the Performer profession, based upon the named band Extremo (a band with a number of NPCs in it) meeting my criteria.
I've certainly read about the godly and poetic nature of honey before. Honey is the main ingredient in the alcoholic drink mead, which is made by letting a mixture of honey and water (often scented with herbs or flowers) to sit and ferment. It was apparently a very popular drink in medieval Europe. In the Norse saga called the Skaldskaparmal, the god Odin transformed into a snake and slithered through a small tunnel which lead to the giant Suttungr's supply of sacred, poetic mead. After drinking all he could hold, Odin slithered back to Asgard and spit out the poetic mead into a series of barrels. The other Asir gods and goddesses of Asgard, could thereafter drink it. That poetic mead was supposed to have magical qualities, one of them being the ability to recount a great wealth of lore.
So yes, I would agree about the significance of a lute and honey being stored together in a chest owned by a Minstrel. I appreciate the way the creators the Chronicles of Myrtnana: Archolos have made honey a more important part of the setting and have even created a quest centered around it. I'm very glad I posted my question about Bards in this forum. I'm going to include it as a profession, but might rename it to Minstrel to better capture the flavor of the Gothic setting.
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nomina nuda tenemus
Zitat von kronovan
So in the Deutsch version of the game we have a named minstrel Marus - excellent.
The NPC is only included in a special development version, it doesn't exist in the final released version of the game. Gothic for the American market only had the following changes:
- The appearance of In Extremo has been removed (legal issues)
- Velaya wears a bikini while bathing in Archbaron House (American fear of nudity)
- Swamp weed stems are shaped like cigarettes, not cone-shaped cannabis joints (propagation of drug use)
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To add to Vorons post, from those scripts he mentions we also have actual poems/songs Marus was supposed to sing/recite. But I cannot quote them now, I'm not at home.
And yes, Marus is not included in the german version. I think the last version he was included in is 1.01, and those bard scripts and poems are from 1.00b.
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In the Modification "Velaya" we can find an bard, who presents us verry nice poems.
You can find him at the marcetplace of Khorinis an his nam is Manolito.
But I dont know if there is an english version. If not, it would be a pitty.
"Dei a volta ao mundo, dei a volta à vida...
Só achei enganos, decepções, pesar...
Oh, a ingénua alma tão desiludida!...
Minha velha ama, com a voz dorida
Canta-me cantigas de me adormentar!..."
Guerra Junqueiro
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Zitat von Montefiore
But I dont know if there is an english version. If not, it would be a pitty.
Velaya has an english version since december of 2009.
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"Dei a volta ao mundo, dei a volta à vida...
Só achei enganos, decepções, pesar...
Oh, a ingénua alma tão desiludida!...
Minha velha ama, com a voz dorida
Canta-me cantigas de me adormentar!..."
Guerra Junqueiro
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Rookie
Thanks for all the info - much appreciated!
That there's a bard/minstrel in Valeya wouldn't really meet my criteria for a named NPC, because I'm not considering fan-made mods unless they're officially endorsed by Piranha Bytes such as CoM Archolos. I'm really trying to keep to Piranha Bytes concept for their game world of Gothic for my adaptation. Personally though, I really want to play that Valeya mod now that I'm aware of it and will do so after I complete my current play throughs of G2 NotR and Archolos.
Does anyone know why Marus never made it into the final German release?
What I'm trying to understand is whether it was purely a human resource (time to test) or system resource issue? Or was it perhaps because PB felt later on in the development cycle that a Minstrel did not fit with their canon of lore?
Geändert von kronovan (30.10.2022 um 15:14 Uhr)
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nomina nuda tenemus
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Rookie
Zitat von Don-Esteban
(The Absolutely Awesome Mod) Archolos is not officially recognized by Piranha Bytes. At least that would be new to me. Where can I read about it?
You're correct about THQ Nordic being the company that now owns the Intellectual Property and controls the canon for the Gothic series. I read on a website (sorry don't have the link) that the owner of the IP (THQ Nordic) gave permission to the group of Archolos moders, to make Archolos available on Steam as a stand alone game with its own store listing. I'm considering that as accepting the content and expansion of the canon, but I might be making an incorrect assumption there.
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nomina nuda tenemus
Zitat von kronovan
You're correct about THQ Nordic being the company that now owns the Intellectual Property and controls the canon for the Gothic series. I read on a website (sorry don't have the link) that the owner of the IP (THQ Nordic) gave permission to the group of Archolos moders, to make Archolos available on Steam as a stand alone game with its own store listing. I'm considering that as accepting the content and expansion of the canon, but I might be making an incorrect assumption there.
Okay, so you have no source at all. Then this is just talk. Sorry, but the permission to publish has nothing at all to do with the question of what belongs to the canon.
Especially since it is completely questionable why an extra permit from THQ Nordic should have been necessary. There is a modding license for the publication of modifications, which regulates everything. Any additional permits are not necessary.
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Rookie
Zitat von Don-Esteban
...Sorry, but the permission to publish has nothing at all to do with the question of what belongs to the canon.
Especially since it is completely questionable why an extra permit from THQ Nordic should have been necessary. There is a modding license for the publication of modifications, which regulates everything. Any additional permits are not necessary.
Those are good points. As well, the decision to allow Archolos to have its own Steam store page, was probably a decision made by Steam staff.
That PB had Marus in a early Gothic development version, leads me to believe they at least had the intent for Minstrels to be in the setting and canon. I'm leaning more towards including the profession than not including them.
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