[Flatcher Goth]

Poking around in the lore sources, I came to the conclusion that one of the main mysteries of the lore of Gothic is the first war with the orcs. Very little information, and extremely many inconsistencies.


After reading the main sources, I had some questions that, however, could be explained. And yet I am writing this here because I have almost no ideas.


Let's start with the sources of information about this war. What do we know about her?
The only sources of information are 2 hunters from Gothic 1, a lectern from Gothic 3, and possibly the German manual Gothic 1.


What do we know? We know the following: 1. The first war with the orcs, began about 70 years before the start of the game. Where does this information come from? From one of the characters in Gothic 3, we know that Zuben's last vision was just 70 years ago. From the lectern, we become aware that Zuben had the only vision when he decided to create his empire, and Beliar himself spoke to him. It was just at the end of the first war with the orcs. 2. Orcs won this war, capturing the continent, and (probably) Khorinis. This is a direct text told to Gothic 3, and there is also evidence in Gothic 1. in the form of statues of orcs, in places where people used to live. 3. Not the fact that it was Rhobar I who fought against the orcs in the first war. It could be Rhobar II, as will become clear later. In Gothic 3, it is said that when Rhobar descended from the mountains in order to establish his empire, he fought with the orcs. However, this was not necessarily the first war with the orcs. Moreover, in the game, this event was called "Orc wars", and it happened before the founding of Myrtana, and not after. What is clearly described in the history of Zuben.


So what is the problem? If we read the backstory from the manual, we learn that Varant existed before Zuben. But it was a completely different kingdom, and Zuben was not then. A certain emperor Varant declared war on Myrtana. For 4 years, Myrtana defeats Varant. The emperor is executed, and the Regent and Consul are put in his place. After this, the next winter, the king becomes ill, and dies of illness and wounds. It was Rhobar I. In his place, comes his son, Rhobar II. Soon after the death of the king, orcs crossed the border. They robbed the settlements, and ruined the fortresses. This war ended in a quick and uncertain victory. However, Rhobar knew that the orcs would come again.


Then comes the story of the second war with the orcs, of Khorinis, and of the valley of mines.


The problem is that it is not clear when there was a war with the orcs. Before the war with Varant, or after the death of Rhobar. She could not be between these events, because the king died immediately after the war. However, the war could not be before the war with Varant, since the Emperor Varant was executed. Zuben is alive at the time of the game. But even after the war there could not be, because in that war with the orcs, Rhobar II defeated the orcs.


Perhaps someone will suggest that the described actions, it was that war with Varant before the second war with the orcs. However, no. In the second war with Varant, Myrtana attacked Varant. And in the first war, the opposite. Well, the emperor died after the first war, and Zuben after the second war, survived.


Among other things, the first war with the orcs could not have happened after the dead of Rhobar II, and before the second war. Since in the manual, the orcs go on a campaign immediately after the death of Rhobar I.


We come to one single version that came to my mind. The event where Rhobar defeats the orcs after the death of his father is the beginning of the first war with the orcs. He defeats the orcs, they leave, build up strength, and go to war again. Perhaps those orcs were the same wild orcs that were supposed to be in Gothic 3, and after defeating them, they tried to capture Myrtana with the help of the northern orcs. Anyway, this is the only option that I see.


And yes, you can say that Mike Hoge said that the manual has a lot of nonsense, and that the canon is changing from part to part. But I will tell you so. We are trying to connect events, and understand how it could be. I believe that the highlight of Gothic lore. In order to find solutions, you need to think. Not just read a million books and listen to a hundred dialogs. When an lore particle by piece is going to be a whole story, it is interesting to seek and explore it!

[weisskeinennamen]

My view on the war is sliiiiightly different.

I have my problems with Mezir saying Zuben had good visions 70 yeras ago. He didnt say "the dark god spoke to Zuben 70 years ago". I sounds more like "good visions" means "good ideas". And Beliar spoke to him muuuuch later.

In the book in G1 Lee is mentioned as a general in the war against gellon and lukkor. If the war happend before Zuben (and his 70 years) than Lee would be like 90 years old.
I think there was only one war with Varant and the developers change it so Myrtana attacked first.

The manual suggests that the first war with the orcs was only the orcs raiding Myrtana with small attacks.
My theory is that the second war is the first GREAT war mentioned in the story of Zuben.
Vatras left Varant 10 years ago and says in G2 that not many humans worship Beliar.

"After the first great war the orcs ruled the kingdom of Myrtana. And the humans were there slaves but there fighters were there gladiators. One of them was Zuben and he fort well for he shared the beliefs of the orcs. And the orcs granted him his freedom and Zuben wondered south. (...)
“This is where I shall build my realm for you.”
And the faith of the orcs became the faith of the humans."

Orcs ruling Myrtana. Gladiators. Sounds like present myrtana.

Only three years ago the orcs conquered the desert and seperated it from Myrtana. So easy for Zuben to build his realm.
Also a good reason why the nomads starting now to reatake the desert. And not already 70, 60 or 50 years ago.
Also Humans worshiping Beliar just 2 to 3 years ago could explain why Vatras didnt know that.

So my guess is the first "war" happend 10 to 12 years ago. Only shortly before the second.

Rhobar I conquering myrtana is non of these two wars. Its maybe exaggerated but Frithjof says he took myrtana alone because Innos made him strong. Like the hero can liberate myrtana alone

[Flatcher Goth]

My view on the war is sliiiiightly different.

I have my problems with Mezir saying Zuben had good visions 70 yeras ago. He didnt say "the dark god spoke to Zuben 70 years ago". I sounds more like "good visions" means "good ideas". And Beliar spoke to him muuuuch later.

In the book in G1 Lee is mentioned as a general in the war against gellon and lukkor. If the war happend before Zuben (and his 70 years) than Lee would be like 90 years old.
I think there was only one war with Varant and the developers change it so Myrtana attacked first.

The manual suggests that the first war with the orcs was only the orcs raiding Myrtana with small attacks.
My theory is that the second war is the first GREAT war mentioned in the story of Zuben.
Vatras left Varant 10 years ago and says in G2 that not many humans worship Beliar.

"After the first great war the orcs ruled the kingdom of Myrtana. And the humans were there slaves but there fighters were there gladiators. One of them was Zuben and he fort well for he shared the beliefs of the orcs. And the orcs granted him his freedom and Zuben wondered south. (...)
“This is where I shall build my realm for you.”
And the faith of the orcs became the faith of the humans."

Orcs ruling Myrtana. Gladiators. Sounds like present myrtana.

Only three years ago the orcs conquered the desert and seperated it from Myrtana. So easy for Zuben to build his realm.
Also a good reason why the nomads starting now to reatake the desert. And not already 70, 60 or 50 years ago.
Also Humans worshiping Beliar just 2 to 3 years ago could explain why Vatras didnt know that.

So my guess is the first "war" happend 10 to 12 years ago. Only shortly before the second.

Rhobar I conquering myrtana is non of these two wars. Its maybe exaggerated but Frithjof says he took myrtana alone because Innos made him strong. Like the hero can liberate myrtana alone

It is important that the manual is not the purest source of information, but we are considering an option in which the entire contents of the manual is the purest truth, and canon. Theoretically.


The fact that Vatras says that few people bow to Beliar means that at the time of the creation of the game, the PB tried to expose it in the worst possible light. All because of the banal plot of Gothic 2. As a result, we get a mismatch.


I think the first war with the orcs could not have been before half a century. Since we know that most of the ruins in the mine valley, remained after the first war. The only ancient inhabitants of the valley are known to us from the document on the ownership of the burggraf Bergmar, who led the fort. In this document, we can see a mention of the Duchy of Timoris. We cannot say how old these ruins are, since they seem to have been destroyed at different times. However, the ruins with statues of orcs suggest that they were destroyed during the first war with the orcs. Again, you can’t say how long it was. However, it seems to me that a very long time.


The whole story in this manual is spoiled by a part about orcs. Or a part about Varant. However, I like the idea of ​​a long-standing war with Varant, and the orc raids. It would be fantastic if THQ Nordic Barcelona would take this and write down the whole history of Gothic, excluding inconsistencies, and expand it.

[weisskeinennamen]

Sure. The manual is officially non-canon but its (nearly) everything we have. And there is probably some thruth in it.

2-3 years of human Beliar worship is just my explanation. Its a possible explanation but I dont think PB thought about it as much as we do...

Buildings cant be destroyed by other things than time. I like the idea of the first war happening long time ago. But I dont see much evidence

Every plothole THQ fills, is just an answer for the "new" gothic and not for the original.
There will be three different Gothics in the future:
-Original Gothic
-Non-canon Gothic (1,2,3 +forsaken gods&arcania)
-Gothic remake/reboot

and only the original PB group could answer questions about the first war

[Sternchenfarbe]

It was just background story, don't think to much about it, because PB didn't either

[weisskeinennamen]

It was just background story, don't think to much about it, because PB didn't either

We´re just having fun with gothic theories. Polite and nice.

If we start fighting and insulting each other you can "set yourself between us in order to reconcile our dispute"