[Drurhang]

Hi! I 'm Drurhang. Team from Russia is working on addon "Gothic Sequel"


We need your ideas about the designs of the new and swamp camps' locations in the sequel. Recently, with the great help of the one 3D modeler who agreed to help us, we WIP on the mesh of the new camp. It would great to hear your ideas on the implementation of some design and visual elements of this camp.




Use this information that we know and can share:
1.) An earthquake and a magical explosion that occurred after the fall of the magic barrier caused a lot of destruction in this camp.
2.) The upper tier of the thieves area was partially caved with stones pouring from the upside of a large cave.
3.) The huts were robbed and most of them were completely burned.
4.) The lake of the New Camp was drained
5.) The dam should has been destroyed fully or partially.
6.) Rice fields are no longer available for growing plants.
7.) A lot of demonic creatures are roaming around of the New Camp.
8.) Guardians towers and wooden buildings near the entrance to the New Camp were supposed to fall down on the trail. (But that would be immediately removed by those people who often travelling there)




First of all we need to decide this:
1. Should the rice lord's barn be destroyed? If so, how will this affect in the design and visually? Will it look beautiful and logical from the outside? (It's a huge building and looks like quite solid. It can't just collapse in case of a not-so-strong earthquake)
2. Should we add the earth faults? If so, where? (we have planned 2 for now)
3. Should the bar in the center of the camp have been affected by the earthquake? If it's not, is there any reason not to touch it and do nothing with it?
4. Should the caves of the water mages, the Li cave and the caves leading to the place where the ore mountain was previously stored, be filled with stones?
5. How should the stoneblock be implemented? Stupidly concreted the whole place, or done carefully and in great detail? (huts that are broken into several pieces, fragments of walls, small stones, etc.)
6.) Do we need to stoneblock the old entrance to the camp and make a new one? (Me doesn't really like this idea, and "the blockage of the road itself with stones is also illogical, mb few wooden fragments should be there, yeah, but I also think that civilians just could move this fragments and use it. (Those few people who stayed in the camp)
7. Is it worth it to completely destroy the dam or to leave pieces of clay on its edges from which the stumps of branches and logs will stick out?


Now about swamp camp, here is a piece of information from which we can form our own vision:
1. The quake caused the camp to sink deeper into swamp.
2. Some of the platforms and huts have collapsed.
3. Only a few psionics survived the renunciation Sleeper and Bloody night.
4. Since there were no more gurus to take care of the camp, no more guards to kill swampsharks and bloodflys, camp became a harsh and dangerous place.
5. Gradually his have left recent psionics.
6. It seems that Swamp camp has become a haven for all sorts of crazies lately, but no one knows for sure.
(Belief in Sleeper and swamp after fall barrier attract new "forsaken". a new small community of dangerous crazies is formed (Iroquois witches, voodoo shamans, poisoners, prophets, dangerous criminals, etc.)
I would also like to listen to yours Supplement.


Important points to which we ask you to pay attention:
1. In this topic we want to wage only only discussion finalize the locations sequel without the publication any of so-called "banned" content.
2. Project will be developed for a long time, it is a long-term project, so talking about something that has a direct or indirect relationship to the release date and to what materials will/ will not be included in the revision is meaningless.
3. Project will not be published anywhere in any form without the permission of the persons who decided to develop it.


In addition, we offer you to take a look at our latest version mesh Bergfestung.3ds, maybe you have any other ideas for improving/expanding this location? We will be glad to any offer.
https://youtu.be/hiuv6875rYQ


----------------------------------------------------------
(30.11.2019)

So, the topic for discussion is the design vision of individual objects in gothic sequel. Our task is to recognize the design style of the gothic sequel, we need to understand what principles adhered to Alex Bruggeman and other modelers when creating objects of the world. So, more specifically about than want to talk to the precisely now - this about orcish tents, which likely must were would differ and be modeled on different, with a different form of. (Not as in Gothic 2) Does anyone have any suggestions or ideas as to what it might look like? Here is until several examples from the most sequel:
[Bild: AnWQRRrdu2g.jpg]

So looks tent healers in district obsessed, as you think could whether Orc tents were be modeled with such form of, desirable in detail explain its the answer if you decide his public.
[Bild: fr_xyLIlenE.jpg]

[Strontzine]

Drurhang

Gothic Sequel: Team aus Russland arbeitet am Addon "Gothic Sequel"

Da sich bisher keiner des Posts angenommen hat ( wohl mangels Englisch-Kenntnisse ) schreibe ich mal in deutscher Übersetzung ( in sinngemässer Form vereinfacht ) worum es geht.

Wie obig zu ersehen arbeitet Team aus Russland an einem Addon "Gothic Sequel"

Wie die "Sequel" Kenner wissen, gibt es dort das Neue Lager und das Sumpf-Lager nicht ( mangels Weiterführung noch nicht fertig erstellt und infolgedessen ausgelassen).


Team aus Russland fragt hier die deutsche Sektion nach Ideen zu den Entwürfen des Neuen Lagers und des Sumpfcamps für eine eventuelle Fortsetzung ( neu Erstellung ) des Addons.
Wie im Post ganz unten angegeben will das Team aber nicht gegen verbotene Inhalte Verstossen.

Wer will kann also hier etwas dazu beitragen wie das Addon eventuell gestaltet werden soll.

Übersetzung :

Wir brauchen Eure Ideen zu den Entwürfen des Neuen Lages und des Sumpfcamps in der Fortsetzung. Kürzlich haben wir mit der Hilfe eines 3D-Modellierers, der zugestimmt hat, uns zu helfen, das Modell des Neuen Lagers umrissen. Es wäre toll, Eure Ideen zur Umsetzung einiger Design- und visueller Elemente dieses Lagers zu hören.


Verwendbare Informationen, die wir nutzen und weitergeben können:

Ein Erdbeben, eine magische Explosion, die nach dem Fall der magischen Barriere auftrat, verursacht in der Barriere - im Neuen Lager - große Zerstörungen.
Die Hütten wurden ausgeraubt und größtenteils niedergebrannt.
Der See des Neuen Lagers wurde trocken gelegt.
Der Damm sollte ganz oder teilweise zerstört worden sein.
Reisfelder stehen für den Anbau von Pflanzen nicht mehr zur Verfügung.
Viele dämonische Kreaturen tummeln sich im neuen Lager.
Wachtürme und Holzgebäude in der Nähe des Eingangs zum Neuen Lager sollten auf den Pfad fallen. (Aber das würden die Leute, die oft dorthin reisen, sofort beseitigen.)


Eventuelle Entscheidungs-Möglichkeiten :

Sollte die Scheune des Reis-Baron zerstört werden? Wenn ja, wie wirkt sich dies auf das Design und die Optik aus? Wird es von außen schön und logisch aussehen? Es ist ja ein riesiges Gebäude und sieht ziemlich solide aus. Es kann nicht einfach zusammenbrechen, wenn das Erdbeben nicht so stark gewesen ist.

Sollten wir Erdlöcher hinzufügen? Wenn ja, wo? (wir haben 2 dafür schon geplant)

Sollte die Kneipe in der Mitte des Lagers vom Erdbeben betroffen sein? Wenn nicht, gibt es einen Grund, es nicht anzufassen und nichts damit zu tun?

Sollten die Höhlen der Wassermagier, die Lee-Höhle und die Höhlen, die zu dem Ort führen, an dem der Erzberg zuvor gelagert war, mit Steinen gefüllt werden?

Wie soll der Steinblock implementiert werden? Blöd den ganzen Ort zu betonieren oder soll er detailgetreu bleiben? Desweitern - sollten die Hütten in mehrere Teile zerbrochen sein, in Mauerreste, kleine Steine usw?.

Müssen wir den alten Eingang zum Lager umsteinern oder einen neuen bauen? Mir gefällt diese Idee nicht wirklich, und die Blockierung der Straße selbst mit Steinen ist auch unlogisch, einige Holzfragmente sollten da sein, ja, aber ich denke auch, das Zivilisten diese Fragmente einfach bewegen und benutzen könnten, oder von den wenigen Leute, die im Lager geblieben sind.

Lohnt es sich, den Damm vollständig zu zerstören oder an den Rändern Lehmstücke zu hinterlassen, aus denen die Zweige und Stämme herausragen?

------------------------------------------

Nun zum Sumpfcamp, hier eine Information, aus der wir unsere eigene Vision formen wollen :

Das Beben ließ das Lager tiefer in den Sumpf sinken.

Einige Plattformen und Hütten sind eingestürzt.

Nur wenige Psioniker überlebten.

Da es keine Gurus mehr gibt, die sich um das Lager kümmern, keine Wachen mehr, die Sumpfhaie und Blutfliegen töten, wurde das Lager zu einem harten und gefährlichen Ort.

Nach und nach haben es die letzten Psioniker verlassen.

Es scheint, dass das Sumpf-Lager in letzter Zeit ein Paradies für alle möglichen Verrückten geworden ist, aber niemand weiß es genau.

Der Glaube an Schläfer und Sumpf nach dem Fall der Barriere zieht neue "Verlassene" an. Es bildet sich eine neue kleine Gemeinschaft gefährlicher Verrückter (Irokesenhexen, Voodoo-Schamanen, Giftmischer, Propheten, gefährliche Kriminelle usw).


Speziell wird auch noch an der "Bergfestung" gearbeitet.



Ich würde auch gerne Eure Vorstellungen dazu hören.

Wichtige Punkte, auf die wir Euch aufmerksam machen möchten:

1. In diesem Thema wollen wir nur diskutieren, den Gothic1-Nachfolger abschließen, ohne dass die Veröffentlichung irgendeinen sogenannten "verbotenen" Inhalt enthält.

2. Das Projekt wird für eine lange Zeit entwickelt, es ist ein langfristiges Projekt, daher ist es bedeutungslos, über etwas zu sprechen, das in direktem oder indirektem Zusammenhang mit dem Veröffentlichungsdatum steht und darüber, welche Materialien in der Revision enthalten sein werden.

3. Das Projekt wird in keiner Form ohne die Erlaubnis der Personen, die es entwickelt haben, veröffentlicht.

--------------------------------

Nun, was sagt Ihr Fans dazu ?

Gruss

[Drurhang]

Thank you for the translation into German, I hope it will help to make this topic a little more active.

3. Das Projekt wird in keiner Form ohne die Erlaubnis der Personen, die es entwickelt haben, veröffentlicht"

We meant that we will not publish the project in any alpha/release stage until the person who made the decision to develop the project (MaGoth) gives permission to do so and agrees this issue with other persons.






We plan to get a maximum of ideas to create the most interesting and similar in design to level PB meshes. This topic is accepted to discuss openly because we support the principle of "free ideas" the more interesting ideas and solutions are expressed-the better not only for us who is engaged in completion of a sequel and preparation of material base, but also for the whole community because it is possible that these ideas now may be useful to other people or may be useful to them in future. It is important that it is available to them now, and not after our project is finished, so that other people don't have to wait a long time and lose all patience and motivation to do anything about it after all these years.

[Bisasam]

You know what my problem with the Sequel always was? There was no good explanation for the demonic creatures. They were just THERE.
If you want to make a good Addon, you should work out a good solution for that. For example bring in those creatures later, after there was a good explanation. In the first chapter, only the destruction of the barrier is visible. Later on, demonic creatures start roming the world because they managed to open a way through the sleeper ruins and enter through the Portal.

[lali]

You know what my problem with the Sequel always was? There was no good explanation for the demonic creatures. They were just THERE.
If you want to make a good Addon, you should work out a good solution for that. For example bring in those creatures later, after there was a good explanation. In the first chapter, only the destruction of the barrier is visible. Later on, demonic creatures start roming the world because they managed to open a way through the sleeper ruins and enter through the Portal.

This is not true. The Sequel wasn't finished and there should have been an explanation for why they are there. Many of them should spawn only after some progress in the Story. And you shouldn't forget, that the hero wasn't in the colony for 6(!) months. Many things were going on while he was gone. So what the demons are and why they are there is something which would have been explained in the course of the story of course. For example, the healer inside the Refugee Camp are researching about the disease which the so-called possessed are infected from, they do not know yet why they have this and what this is. And the same research is going on about the demons. Of course, they did not yet develop this explanation, this is what we do, but they wanted to give it at some point in the game and the hero was supposed to play a role in that (for example by getting the demon's so called "demonic stings" to let the mages or healers examine them etc.)

That the demons come through the portal inside the ruins of the orc temple is not what the developers intended, if so, it would have been only one of many ways they "enter" or "break-through".

[Drurhang]

You know what my problem with the Sequel always was? There was no good explanation for the demonic creatures. They were just THERE.
If you want to make a good Addon, you should work out a good solution for that. For example bring in those creatures later, after there was a good explanation. In the first chapter, only the destruction of the barrier is visible. Later on, demonic creatures start roming the world because they managed to open a way through the sleeper ruins and enter through the Portal.

Hello, Bisasam..
The first thing we would like to draw your attention - We already know the explanation for the appearance of demonic creatures in the colony, primarily because we have absolutely all the existing information and resources that have been developed for Gothic 1 and Gothic Sequel. Existing information already contained an explanation of what you are talking about. Recently, one of the members of our team wrote off with the main developer and ex-director project gothic sequel - Stefan Nyul and received permission from him to use the information from original source documentation for non-commercial purposes. (Implementations of ideas in mods and use of information in the creation of video material, in particular videos on YouTube, so that the information will soon be used in a new large documentary movie about gothic sequel, I repeat, it's all agreed and legal)
The second - in our version gothic sequel there is explanation not only this, but and all other things even adjusted for integration Gothic Sequel in already published trilogy. We remind that our sequel is a kind of bridge between Gothic 1 and Gothic 2. We already have a huge project documentation in ArticyDraft up to technical plans for vobing locations and their design elements.
To make you understand how deeply and seriously we approach the development of this project, here are a few explanatory points:
1. The theoretical (Game Lore) and technical parts of the documentation have been developed since mid-2017 year.
2. We use the licensed version program ArticyDraft for development.
3. We make a detailed "business card" for each game character. This includes his character, age, demeanor, relationships with other characters, life story, and many other aspects.
4. An interactive map colony of the sequel with multiple additional and explanatory information has been compiled.

[Gregox]

Hi! I 'm Drurhang. Team from Russia is working on addon "Gothic Sequel"


We need your ideas about the designs of the new and swamp camps' locations in the sequel. Recently, with the great help of the one 3D modeler who agreed to help us, we WIP on the mesh of the new camp. It would great to hear your ideas on the implementation of some design and visual elements of this camp.




Use this information that we know and can share:
1.) An earthquake and a magical explosion that occurred after the fall of the magic barrier caused a lot of destruction in this camp.
2.) The upper tier of the thieves area was partially caved with stones pouring from the upside of a large cave.
3.) The huts were robbed and most of them were completely burned.
4.) The lake of the New Camp was drained
5.) The dam should has been destroyed fully or partially.
6.) Rice fields are no longer available for growing plants.
7.) A lot of demonic creatures are roaming around of the New Camp.
8.) Guardians towers and wooden buildings near the entrance to the New Camp were supposed to fall down on the trail. (But that would be immediately removed by those people who often travelling there)




First of all we need to decide this:
1. Should the rice lord's barn be destroyed? If so, how will this affect in the design and visually? Will it look beautiful and logical from the outside? (It's a huge building and looks like quite solid. It can't just collapse in case of a not-so-strong earthquake)
2. Should we add the earth faults? If so, where? (we have planned 2 for now)
3. Should the bar in the center of the camp have been affected by the earthquake? If it's not, is there any reason not to touch it and do nothing with it?
4. Should the caves of the water mages, the Li cave and the caves leading to the place where the ore mountain was previously stored, be filled with stones?
5. How should the stoneblock be implemented? Stupidly concreted the whole place, or done carefully and in great detail? (huts that are broken into several pieces, fragments of walls, small stones, etc.)
6.) Do we need to stoneblock the old entrance to the camp and make a new one? (Me doesn't really like this idea, and "the blockage of the road itself with stones is also illogical, mb few wooden fragments should be there, yeah, but I also think that civilians just could move this fragments and use it. (Those few people who stayed in the camp)
7. Is it worth it to completely destroy the dam or to leave pieces of clay on its edges from which the stumps of branches and logs will stick out?


Now about swamp camp, here is a piece of information from which we can form our own vision:
1. The quake caused the camp to sink deeper into swamp.
2. Some of the platforms and huts have collapsed.
3. Only a few psionics survived the renunciation Sleeper and Bloody night.
4. Since there were no more gurus to take care of the camp, no more guards to kill swampsharks and bloodflys, camp became a harsh and dangerous place.
5. Gradually his have left recent psionics.
6. It seems that Swamp camp has become a haven for all sorts of crazies lately, but no one knows for sure.
(Belief in Sleeper and swamp after fall barrier attract new "forsaken". a new small community of dangerous crazies is formed (Iroquois witches, voodoo shamans, poisoners, prophets, dangerous criminals, etc.)
I would also like to listen to yours Supplement.


Important points to which we ask you to pay attention:
1. In this topic we want to wage only only discussion finalize the locations sequel without the publication any of so-called "banned" content.
2. Project will be developed for a long time, it is a long-term project, so talking about something that has a direct or indirect relationship to the release date and to what materials will/ will not be included in the revision is meaningless.
3. Project will not be published anywhere in any form without the permission of the persons who decided to develop it.


In addition, we offer you to take a look at our latest version mesh Bergfestung.3ds, maybe you have any other ideas for improving/expanding this location? We will be glad to any offer.
https://youtu.be/hiuv6875rYQ

Hey Drurharg.

About the decisions:
1. It should be destroyed from the inside. The outer house should still be intact, like you said (or at least almost).
2. Yes. Maybe in the swamps or on the way to the exchange space.
3. No, in my opinion it should be affected somehow, just not removed completely.
4. Not the mages quarters / caves, because the mages could prevent that with their magic but the Lee cave (as long as he survives) and the caves that lead to the ore should be caved in I think.
5. Stay true to detail and yes, huts should be broken into several pieces.
6. This, I can't decide.
7. If it's too much work, rather destroy it completely.

I really like all of your other ideas. I still have some questions:
1. Did you just start the project or some time back?
2. Will you use story concepts presented by the "History of Khorinis" team in their video about the Gothic Sequel? Especially for the later chapters?
3. I know, it's a long term work in progress and I don't expect an exact date, but do you know if the mod will come out 2020?
4. Will there be a German localization?
5. Will you extend the borders, since the barrier is destroyed, and add some places there?

Thanks for your time and good luck with the project.

[lali]

Concerning those points.
(1) In our Sequel, build on our Alpha reconstruction, the ricelords barn is destroyed of course. As you said, it is quite solid, so we have modelled it reasonably.
(2) We have the earth "faults", if I understand correctly what you mean. Of course the surface is "destroyed" in various ways, not just the camps.
(3) In our case, the bar is destroyed. It wouldn't make sense to leave it as it is, especially if the dam is broken.
(4) I don't want to elaborate how exactly we have modelled the caves of the new camp at this point. But its (as planned) just partly destroyed.
(5) In our case we have done it in great detail. It should be at least as detailed as the Refugee Camp is, in my opinion. So we have done it this way.
(6) We have a more or less new entrance to the camp. But the old one is not really stone blocked.
(7) As could be seen already we have not completely destroyed the dam (although that would have been much easier). The dam is greatly destroyed, but not completely, so we have modelled the remains of the dam with many details. The mesh of this we have shown a few months ago wasn't finished though. We changed a bit of it again.

If that helps you. Good luck from me too.

[Drurhang]

Hey Drurharg.
I really like all of your other ideas. I still have some questions:
1. Did you just start the project or some time back?
2. Will you use story concepts presented by the "History of Khorinis" team in their video about the Gothic Sequel? Especially for the later chapters?
3. I know, it's a long term work in progress and I don't expect an exact date, but do you know if the mod will come out 2020?
4. Will there be a German localization?
5. Will you extend the borders, since the barrier is destroyed, and add some places there?

Thanks for your time and good luck with the project.

Hello. Thank you for the answers and for the ideas. I will answer on questions by Gregox and make some small clarifications here:
1. Decision to develop project was made himself MaGoth immediately after the inconsistent publication last build gothic sequel alpha-demo version 1.12f on September 30, 2017. Since then, we have been expanding the documentation, making their story ideas for the sake of connection with the events of Gothic 2 and explaining the many inconsistencies that eventually we were able to solve. It's mostly about explaining things like:
How Raven and other people got to Yarkendar? Where did Gomez and some of the people loyal to him go? (According to Stefan Nyul's plan, Gomez himself would survive) Who are Silvio and his people and how did they end up in the valley of the mines? and etc.. In this part we have everything finished and laid out on the shelves.
The very technical part completion project started only in January 2019 and is mainly implemented by only one person, (at the moment) although him occasionally help other people in the first place with the update meshes locations, so to sum up: done still little...
But we already have finished modeling Bergfestung.3ds and we think that it turned out to be quite suitable and interesting, here are some screenshots from it. (It is worth considering that vobbing in Spacer is also still carried out only in local areas)
Mesh New camp is already modeled, but not yet textured, but, of course, we are always open to new ideas to improve it, as well as and for all other meshes of locations.
We still have not even started to deal with the design Layout Swamp Camp and it is for him that your ideas and wishes could be most useful to us, so if there is a desire - I urge all fans to speculate and think about it.

[Bild: CbS1.jpg]

https://upload.worldofplayers.de/files11/CbS1.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/files11/pLc03.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...K4jrWIjqn4.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...RqjWnQqvn5.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...Q3ZKVFCyU6.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...ixg1RLn437.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...hPgaB6Qtd8.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/files11/y6tlaYtzb9.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...hPgaB6Qtd8.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...rQffUDIn12.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...rQffUDIn12.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...6E2vZ5Vc13.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...AfkEYQH111.jpg

2. What exactly do you mean? Just to clarify: all the material and all the knowledge that has been developed for this project, we have on hand and even more, member team, Dmitriy Gotov, had a dialogue with the former Director project - Stefan Nyull and received from him some explanatory information and permission for free use IP documents in YouTube content and the revision. (There is no problem to use this knowledge for non-commercial purposes)
So all it's very clean..
3. No, and this is for sure, do not wait for the release of our mod earlier than in 2021.
4. If we finish our project, it will be translated into German, Polish and English, but of course it will not be immediately and I think that only after the Russian version is already published.
5. Yes, the Surface mesh expansion will be anyway, at a minimum we will return cut passageway near the Old Mine and expand the places that bordered the barrier. Place exchange, caves where was parking miners in Gothic 2, for example as parking Silvestro - all it will be modeled adjusted for Gothic 2.
What else? Well, we will do prerequisites to bogging terrain where in Gothic 2 will emerge swamp dragon, perhaps will create easiest visible freeze a New Camps, because I think that himself ice dragon could was be imprisoned under land where any in not detected (NC people) cave or still that the in this kind.
We will also add a few faults in the earth's crust in the Surface mesh itself, this was also planned by the PB.
All other places such as the ruins of the monastery of the ancient druids, old free mine camp, (Now it is Orc camp according to the idea of Stefan Nyul) the beach next to the Fog Tower (Raven camp), the gorge of bandits (Gomez camp) and some others will also be involved in the game and expanded.
Incidentally, recall for those who forgot or not knew, that sequel according to idea PB should not was include in themselves any new Zen locations located outside Valley Mines. All the action had to take place exclusively in the valley itself, so if you see any projects in which new Zen will be added for outside the valley territory - you know, this is not what was planned by the PB and is a whim author mod.
All exits from valley mines cordoned off Orc patrols, according to the idea of PB there must were would be immortal orcs or same orcs crossbowmen in those places far hero could not would enter.
Personally, it was impossible to sail away by sea from the valley of mines, too, and this option was also considered by the PB, there had to be a trigger on the crossing of which the hero would be eaten by a sea monster. (See implementation of ideas in Gothic 2)

[Gregox]

Hello. Thank you for the answers and for the ideas. I will answer on questions by Gregox and make some small clarifications here:
1. Decision to develop project was made himself MaGoth immediately after the inconsistent publication last build gothic sequel alpha-demo version 1.12f on September 30, 2017. Since then, we have been expanding the documentation, making their story ideas for the sake of connection with the events of Gothic 2 and explaining the many inconsistencies that eventually we were able to solve. It's mostly about explaining things like:
How Raven and other people got to Yarkendar? Where did Gomez and some of the people loyal to him go? (According to Stefan Nyul's plan, Gomez himself would survive) Who are Silvio and his people and how did they end up in the valley of the mines? and etc.. In this part we have everything finished and laid out on the shelves.
The very technical part completion project started only in January 2019 and is mainly implemented by only one person, (at the moment) although him occasionally help other people in the first place with the update meshes locations, so to sum up: done still little...
But we already have finished modeling Bergfestung.3ds and we think that it turned out to be quite suitable and interesting, here are some screenshots from it. (It is worth considering that vobbing in Spacer is also still carried out only in local areas)
Mesh New camp is already modeled, but not yet textured, but, of course, we are always open to new ideas to improve it, as well as and for all other meshes of locations.
We still have not even started to deal with the design Layout Swamp Camp and it is for him that your ideas and wishes could be most useful to us, so if there is a desire - I urge all fans to speculate and think about it.

[Bild: CbS1.jpg]

https://upload.worldofplayers.de/files11/CbS1.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/files11/pLc03.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...K4jrWIjqn4.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...RqjWnQqvn5.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...Q3ZKVFCyU6.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...ixg1RLn437.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...hPgaB6Qtd8.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/files11/y6tlaYtzb9.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...hPgaB6Qtd8.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...rQffUDIn12.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...rQffUDIn12.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...6E2vZ5Vc13.jpg
https://upload.worldofplayers.de/fil...AfkEYQH111.jpg

2. What exactly do you mean? Just to clarify: all the material and all the knowledge that has been developed for this project, we have on hand and even more, member team, Dmitriy Gotov, had a dialogue with the former Director project - Stefan Nyull and received from him some explanatory information and permission for free use IP documents in YouTube content and the revision. (There is no problem to use this knowledge for non-commercial purposes)
So all it's very clean..
3. No, and this is for sure, do not wait for the release of our mod earlier than in 2021.
4. If we finish our project, it will be translated into German, Polish and English, but of course it will not be immediately and I think that only after the Russian version is already published.
5. Yes, the Surface mesh expansion will be anyway, at a minimum we will return cut passageway near the Old Mine and expand the places that bordered the barrier. Place exchange, caves where was parking miners in Gothic 2, for example as parking Silvestro - all it will be modeled adjusted for Gothic 2.
What else? Well, we will do prerequisites to bogging terrain where in Gothic 2 will emerge swamp dragon, perhaps will create easiest visible freeze a New Camps, because I think that himself ice dragon could was be imprisoned under land where any in not detected (NC people) cave or still that the in this kind.
We will also add a few faults in the earth's crust in the Surface mesh itself, this was also planned by the PB.
All other places such as the ruins of the monastery of the ancient druids, old free mine camp, (Now it is Orc camp according to the idea of Stefan Nyul) the beach next to the Fog Tower (Raven camp), the gorge of bandits (Gomez camp) and some others will also be involved in the game and expanded.
Incidentally, recall for those who forgot or not knew, that sequel according to idea PB should not was include in themselves any new Zen locations located outside Valley Mines. All the action had to take place exclusively in the valley itself, so if you see any projects in which new Zen will be added for outside the valley territory - you know, this is not what was planned by the PB and is a whim author mod.
All exits from valley mines cordoned off Orc patrols, according to the idea of PB there must were would be immortal orcs or same orcs crossbowmen in those places far hero could not would enter.
Personally, it was impossible to sail away by sea from the valley of mines, too, and this option was also considered by the PB, there had to be a trigger on the crossing of which the hero would be eaten by a sea monster. (See implementation of ideas in Gothic 2)

Wow, thank you for your detailed and thorough answer.
So you're trying to recreate the Gothic Sequel but make it consistent in order to fit Gothic 2? I'm excited already.

About 2.: If you got all the information from the original makers, nevermind. I was talking about these two videos and their gathered information:
https://youtu.be/SS_RRuNCe6Y?list=PL...LxJF2_Ej08L0ed
https://youtu.be/3djEYZ7_pBc?list=PL..._a2Bb_L4oFA6JQ

But like I said, nevermind then, you already got it from the best possible source.

[Drurhang]

Wow, thank you for your detailed and thorough answer.
So you're trying to recreate the Gothic Sequel but make it consistent in order to fit Gothic 2? I'm excited already.

About 2.: If you got all the information from the original makers, nevermind. I was talking about these two videos and their gathered information:
https://youtu.be/SS_RRuNCe6Y?list=PL...LxJF2_Ej08L0ed
https://youtu.be/3djEYZ7_pBc?list=PL..._a2Bb_L4oFA6JQ

But like I said, nevermind then, you already got it from the best possible source.

Yes, we certainly use this idea and we are even ready to tell you in more detail about all this. This dialogue in Gothic 2 fully fits the situation, which was planned precisely for Gothic Sequel, this clean water plagiarism, which in Gothic 2 looks extremely alien. (After all there there is no influx demons) Speaking about demons and their nature: so, there is demonic dimension, in which all runs Erzdaemon Sleeper. In this dimension there are many different variations demons, in the most diverse forms, not worth focus its attention only on one image represented in Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 - they can look and quite otherwise, after all us is unknown what their species dwell in dimension Beliar. Themselves demons (I think if not all, then greater parts of utterly accurately) are peculiar to telepathic ability to, this us known still from Gothic 1 on dialogue between hero and Xardas-Demon, communication between them obviously is happening under aid reading thought, not himself materialy conversation. Now back to the sequel itself, all the matter holding the link between the dimensions on the territory of the valley of mines was weakened and led to the formation of gaps. The first demonic creatures appear as soon as Diego learns of their threat.
They may also be in the game world before, in places that the player will have to visit as they progress through the story. Demons did not even need to enter the valley of the mines itself to affect various things like ore and the living beings themselves. They could master the minds of living beings when they came within their sphere of influence. First of all animals and those people who had weak mentality because of Smoking of a swamp grass or something like that were exposed to influence. That is, in order for a creature to turn into a demon, it did not have to fall into the very dimension of demons, as happened with the fire mages. It was enough just to be near the gap between the dimensions for the demons to take over their minds. Have themselves demonic creatures after their mutation started to emerge thorns, and naturally, than greater size was being, the more have him should was be these thorns. These spikes will be useful later in the manufacture of special drinks or armor. And Yes, as not it is difficult guess, there is and the second way to contagion obsession with, this either wound these demonic thorns, either bite from demonic beings, which are under the control of demons from another dimension. If such a creature bites a person, he also gradually loses control of his mind and becomes possessed. For Such people subsequently themselves demons "whisper on ears" and drive their mad. At all the entire this theme with demons was coined thanks to real cases obsession with, when even implemented rituals exorcism, modern history knows many this situation.

[lali]

Interesting. You seem to mention a project wanting to add another .zen to the old world.zen, which was not planned by the developers of course. I am not aware, that there is such a project adding another zen to the valley of mines? Can you link me to this?

But I found it rather funny that you call this derogative a "whim author mod", while yourself try to harmonize the Sequel with Gothic 2. Until now I thought the russian Sequel project would be more likely to be like the original Sequel should have been than our german Sequel project will be, because, as known, we have decided to elaborate a bit more and put more of our own ideas into it, but after seeing the latest screenshots and reading that you want to harmonize it with Gothic 2 I'm not sure anymore.

I don't like the idea, but on the other side I think its good that the projects will be so different and I'm interested how you want to forge the lore and story of the two together.

[Drurhang]

Interesting. You seem to mention a project wanting to add another .zen to the old world.zen, which was not planned by the developers of course. I am not aware, that there is such a project adding another zen to the valley of mines? Can you link me to this?

At the moment we do not know if there is such a mod or not. This was simply announcement on the future, that if who the will add such Zen, in project revision sequel, then this will be exactly those thing that PB utterly accurately not have become would to do.

I don't like the idea, but on the other side I think its good that the projects will be so different and I'm interested how you want to forge the lore and story of the two together

Many things have already been successfully explained. We written veeery huge plasts of text in which all these details were laid out on the shelves.
Yes, you are right, the idea to link the sequel and Gothic 2 is quite specific and of course it also does not appeal to everyone, but here is need pay attention that It is worth considering the fact that if the development of the addon was officially resumed by PB themselves after the release of Gothic 2 Night of the Raven, they would have to enter it into the plot outline of these parts.
Our project may be and mod and is not developed by himself PB, but nevertheless the idea itself, given the above fact and fact that creators mod are active collectors of all possible resources and information, it has the right to exist and I sure that it will gain a lot of supporters.
In any case, in our own community, more than 1000 fans are waiting for the project and this makes us very happy and motivated.

Until now I thought the russian Sequel project would be more likely to be like the original Sequel should have been than our german Sequel project will be, because, as known, we have decided to elaborate a bit more and put more of our own ideas into it, but after seeing the latest screenshots and reading that you want to harmonize it with Gothic 2 I'm not sure anymore.

We do not set a goal to make it exactly what it was supposed to be, we want to make it as rich and interesting as possible. This primarily concerns the secondary storylines and the filled space within the colony. Based on the fact that the actions of the sequel unfold exclusively in the World.zen + zen from G1, need maximally perhaps qualitatively and in detail do vobbing and simulate all these new territory to player was interestingly again all of this explore.
The main storyline gothic sequel which was prescribed in the documentation is not changed, but only supplemented. So that the plot part of will be precisely those that and should was be, but given the that sequel whether he implemented in the time on source in moment cancel project scenario was would brief and little interest, then us were taken measures to enrich the story abundance side storylines and minor quests. More than sure that original sequel could was would walkthroughed for 20-25 hours of gameplay (in case planned release in the begining 2002 year), we will increase this number to at least 40.

BTW:
as for the design locations Bergfestung and NewCamp, in this part we do not want to limit ourselves anything for the sake of similarity with design camps from Gothic 2. Like sacrificing the whole Dam, Tavern, Towers and the entrance and the platform that was supposed to collapse. If we don't do it as it should and leave it as it is, then it's going to be worse in terms of the design vision of this camp in gothic sequel, as I'm pretty sure the PB would have changed all those elements. Also, since the mountain fortress was also not finalized, it is likely that the developers would have added a few new rooms and huts. We tried to make the most of this place and added a few more places such as the Shepherd's plateau - grazing for sheep, Lower (underground) floor in the fortress itself, several balconies, such as the balcony from the Princess room and another plateau for Royal walks. There we will have a garden and a gazebo, so that eventually the fortress will look like a medieval castle. I think it's the best that we could come up with for this location.

Here are some points explaining the small interest for development project in form "pure" Gothic Sequel:
- The main storyline itself could have been expanded in the future. No one cant argue, that "The plot that presented in 1.12f was not would be supplemented or even modified in some places". There is a high probability that developers could would change it in future in case continuation development.
- The insufficient development Secondary quests. For Chapter 2, 3 and 4, they do not exist at all in the material written by the PB. So in any case, it is impossible to do without their own fantasies. The that in the final version game would had side quests for each Chapter personally I not doubt, but us all is unknown that precisely PB would added, perhaps is worth again same pay attention on Gothic 2 and borrow inspiration and ideas already from there.
- Insufficient development of Level meshes. Not to mention New Camp and Swamp Camp, Even in Old Camp and Mountain Fortress it is required to make some changes and to diversify these camps with new zones or design elements: cracks, destructions, new rooms, dungeons or perhaps underground passages of a catacomb. For example, we plan to diversify the interior old camp with new rooms, add secret place under the scene IN Extremo, basement in separate huts, also under wall Old Camp and of course expand the dungeons themselves under castle OC, there can also add a few new rooms, or exit to the catacombs.
- Chapter 1 Original Gothic Sequel in fact did not even have any main storyline, it consisted only of training techno-missions such as those that were presented in the passage written for the alpha-demo version 0.94 from Alex Bruggeman. Hero just needed to gain experience for the sake of moving into the second Chapter, is it interesting? There should be a more convincing tie. These things, which planned at a later stage himself PB as, for example: "Change beginning of the game so that on the way to old camp player again had something like a workout (appears not immediately in camp, but at the lower level of the Xardas Tower, or add a ladder. On way you should pay attention to the threat of orcs and meet Thora."(was implemented in Gothic 2, but instead amazone Thora, we meet other characters.) Or: "There must be several possibilities to get into castle OC:
"Blacksmith Gotmar regularly supplies weapons to militia. If you work for him or make him happy, hero may one day be instructed to deliver weapons to castle.
- The same goes for healers: to deliver to castle of potions, etc.
- Additional opportunity. Militia Guards want 500 silver coins for a pass. But where to get them? (Theft, trade, fighting in arena, ...)
If you ask the "wrong" people, they will offer the player their help in delivering message. If you agree, hero gives message that NPC is reading it (even aloud), takes everything as nonsense and again returns a scroll hero."(and again same implemented in Gothic 2 for order to pass in city Khorinis, and idea bringing potions from healers = bringing heal herbs for Constantino) - All this would not have made the first Chapter much better, need was add "more important" plot tie for further progress in the plot and the transition to the second Chapter and we have already thought through it to the smallest detail and even partially implemented.
- Besides, In original gothic sequel more possible would be an empty areas, for example, empty place in location old Quentin camp. This Bands was supposed to be liquidated by the guards Old Camp in Gothic 1. For example, in mod, Dunkle Brut, creators of which also contacted with PB, as and AMT, implemented quest from Bartholo on elimination this little camp, I think that initially this was idea themselves PB.

Of course, this maximally most "pure" version gothic sequel in terms of following PB, also has the right to exist, but we will not deal with it. Though to be honest I hope, that perhaps this created me topic will help those people, which when any decide will be engaged in this plan. At least I'd like to believe it..

[lali]

Thank you for the explanation, this makes it more clear. If so, we have a very similar approach (apart from you trying to harmonize it with Gothic 2), other than that, its very similar (like the planning of a totally different beginning sequence at Xardas tower etc.) and of course we all need to fill the gaps which were not yet developed or even planned from PB, as I say all the time here (like the side quests and all the side quest lines and empty locations etc.), as you said. So no Sequel reconstruction can (or should) be totally "pure". But we all try to do it as interesting as possible and add what we think should have been there and make it the best it could be.

Only new thing I heard so far is you talking about version 0.94 with missions prepared by Alex Brüggemann, didn't know that. Interesting.
Concerning Bartholo giving the mission to kill quentin's gang. Yeah, I heard this theory before. Not sure about it, but its a good approach I think.

Good luck again. [Bild: s_065.gif]

[Drurhang]

Thank you for the explanation, this makes it more clear. If so, we have a very similar approach (apart from you trying to harmonize it with Gothic 2), other than that, its very similar (like the planning of a totally different beginning sequence at Xardas tower etc.) and of course we all need to fill the gaps which were not yet developed or even planned from PB, as I say all the time here (like the side quests and all the side quest lines and empty locations etc.), as you said. So no Sequel reconstruction can (or should) be totally "pure". But we all try to do it as interesting as possible and add what we think should have been there and make it the best it could be.

Only new thing I heard so far is you talking about version 0.94 with missions prepared by Alex Brüggemann, didn't know that. Interesting.
Concerning Bartholo giving the mission to kill quentin's gang. Yeah, I heard this theory before. Not sure about it, but its a good approach I think.

Good luck again.

Thank, and you too good luck and patience with your mods.



Well, speaking about StartParcour.. I think it's even obvious that this is the most suitable and interesting solution to start the game, in any case it looks much better than with teleportation.
In build 1.12f teleportation to old camp was a temporary solution, because the territory Orc lands was not vobbed in spacer. (since the level-areas revision was done gradually and in this order-Demon Tower (+areas around and also for other levels-parts) → Old Camp → Mountain Fortress → New Camp → Psi Camp → another areas Surface part)
Developers also saved time on how to testers quickly started testing plot in old camp, this is confirmed by added 50 LP points at the beginning of the game.
Why was need a temporary solution besides the fact that it saves time to testing plot events old camp? There is another factor - even despite the fact that this is only the alpha version, it should work as well as the release, of course regarding separately worked out plot event bundles , in this case the beginning of the game + events of the old camp. It should be interconnected and explained even at this stage because these versions are shown to publishers and exhibitions and therefore when passing the individual plot parts should have the feeling that you are playing in the finished version.
Here's how we see the planned beginning for the sequel:
Xardas tower should ideally have a descent similar to the one that was in Gothic 2. Hero had to leave the tower and go to the land of the orcs, at the exit next to the tower could also get a few bonuses with varying degrees of difficulty detection. Can also add a few meat bugs or scavengers. After passing mountains (where in g1 placed golems) and coming to the place where in Gothic 1 were orcbiters, hero meets Amazon Thora, who finishes off the wounded Snapper. (see instance Hurt Snapper in scripts) Beginning dialogue with hero she surprised meeting with him and asks who he and where undertook, also in parallel can be add couple of replicas explaining location Thora (Why she here and with what goal). In the process of dialogue, Thora give a possibility a hero to go along with her to the Old Camp, on the way, avoiding the Orc patrols would have to develop some more event-driven conversations. (as on the way from the old camp to the mountain fortress. Can add dialogue about the Orc threat, you can offer additional information about how they got here, to tell about the General situation inside the valley of mines). No talk about demonic beings and meeting with them until should not be. Having reached the camp there is another dialogue and on this way the hero and the Thora diverge, then everything develops according to the already known scenario.

[lali]

Here's how we see the planned beginning for the sequel:
Xardas tower should ideally have a descent similar to the one that was in Gothic 2. Hero had to leave the tower and go to the land of the orcs, at the exit next to the tower could also get a few bonuses with varying degrees of difficulty detection. Can also add a few meat bugs or scavengers. After passing mountains (where in g1 placed golems) and coming to the place where in Gothic 1 were orcbiters, hero meets Amazon Thora, who finishes off the wounded Snapper. (see instance Hurt Snapper in scripts) Beginning dialogue with hero she surprised meeting with him and asks who he and where undertook, also in parallel can be add couple of replicas explaining location Thora (Why she here and with what goal). In the process of dialogue, Thora give a possibility a hero to go along with her to the Old Camp, on the way, avoiding the Orc patrols would have to develop some more event-driven conversations. (as on the way from the old camp to the mountain fortress. Can add dialogue about the Orc threat, you can offer additional information about how they got here, to tell about the General situation inside the valley of mines). No talk about demonic beings and meeting with them until should not be. Having reached the camp there is another dialogue and on this way the hero and the Thora diverge, then everything develops according to the already known scenario.

Yes, this could be. Just one addition. As I am working on Orpheus at the moment mostly, I am not totally in the matter anymore and would need to look into our own documentation, but as far as I know, there is also the possibility according to PB's plan, that you would have meet Ryan at the beginning. And we do not know whether or not the way from Xardas tower would have been the same, as, for example, it would be possible that the old way through the "mountains" (where the Golems were) was destroyed too or something, as the surface was not yet remodelled. So we have a rather creative solution for that.

[Gregox]

Very interesting ideas you two. Just one question:

Who the hell is Ryan?

[lali]

Very interesting ideas you two. Just one question:

Who the hell is Ryan?

Ein Charakter aus der Gothic Alpha, der im Sequel wieder drin war (wenn auch mit anderem Aussehen).

[Drurhang]

Very interesting ideas you two. Just one question:

Who the hell is Ryan?

Ryan is a character known to us from alpha version Gothic 1 and Gothic Sequel. In Gothic Sequel his character likely was borrowed from alpha version of as and many other ideas. Species activities Ryan - Forester, he collects plants and other things for Fire Mages in BF and for Healers in OC. In chapter 2 he decides to sever their ties with Fire Mages because they his blackmail and not pay money for fulfilled orders, subsequently he works only on Healers.

Yes, this could be. Just one addition. As I am working on Orpheus at the moment mostly, I am not totally in the matter anymore and would need to look into our own documentation, but as far as I know, there is also the possibility according to PB's plan, that you would have meet Ryan at the beginning. And we do not know whether or not the way from Xardas tower would have been the same, as, for example, it would be possible that the old way through the "mountains" (where the Golems were) was destroyed too or something, as the surface was not yet remodelled. So we have a rather creative solution for that.

You are right, although I think that PB themselves so globally would not modeled the Surface Mesh, changes of course would be, but as detailed as we can afford all this to think through and do, they simply would not have time. About Ryan, of course, too, can be was would think, but I not sure, that he was able would draft company hero. Yes, he Forester, which delivers plants and other things for fire mages in mountain fortress, (Idea to make such character a supplier of goods was probably taken from alpha version Gothic) but not think that Ryan can thoroughly know territory valley (because Ryan not was added in release G1) and he hardly managed would cope with orcs in case their attacks during joint "travel" with hero until old camp.
So that as on me, option with accompaniment Ryan less attractive and reliable in terms of gameplay, but of course can be add his in what any place in those lands, to hero during escort with Thora until old camp could his see. (Add additional PreStart Routine to collect herbs in the lands orcs)


BTW, in alpha version gothic 1 Ryan probably also had a role of a supplier of goods, he could've worked even on orebarons or again on fire mages. Also Mercenary Fox can give a mission to undermine Ryan's reputation. Why was it necessary to undermine the reputation of Ryan? Well, perhaps due to the fact that Ryan was a competitor Mordrag or had a conflict with one of them or with Bruce. Likely need was derail made to order, steal the key from old chest in which would lay things ordered fire mages and/or in other people.
Ryan's chest was in nearest hut to Graham, but Ryan himself in later versions is located in hut nearest with Mud, perhaps he was moved there only in these pre-release versions.


PS: In our mod, StartParcour adapts to story Gothic 2. So, this event part the beginning of the game has been changed. At all we plan change and Intro from original Gothic Sequel, after all according to our vision, hero should was freely to leave the Tempel and see clear sky over head without barrier. Upon reaching the surface, the tired and exhausted hero reaches the nearest Orc tent and falls into a deep sleep. (this is still a preliminary decision because we have not yet come up with a better explanation for such big visible changes within the valley of mines. On creation these changes was necessary at least a 2 week of time.)

[lali]

Ryan is a character known to us from alpha version Gothic 1 and Gothic Sequel. In Gothic Sequel his character likely was borrowed from alpha version of as and many other ideas. Species activities Ryan - Forester, he collects plants and other things for Fire Mages in BF and for Healers in OC. In chapter 2 he decides to sever their ties with Fire Mages because they his blackmail and not pay money for fulfilled orders, subsequently he works only on Healers.

And in Orpheus we lead the Ryan of the Alpha to his role he has in the Sequel.

So that as on me, option with accompaniment Ryan less attractive and reliable in terms of gameplay, but of course can be add his in what any place in those lands, to hero during escort with Thora until old camp could his see. (Add additional PreStart Routine to collect herbs in the lands orcs)

Exactly, I did'nt meant he would lead the hero to the camp from the orc area either. But he might have a place on his way to the camp, so you can meet him early.

BTW, in alpha version gothic 1 Ryan probably also had a role of a supplier of goods, he could've worked even on orebarons or again on fire mages. Also Mercenary Fox can give a mission to undermine Ryan's reputation. Why was it necessary to undermine the reputation of Ryan? Well, perhaps due to the fact that Ryan was a competitor Mordrag or had a conflict with one of them or with Bruce. Likely need was derail made to order, steal the key from old chest in which would lay things ordered fire mages and/or in other people.
Ryan's chest was in nearest hut to Graham, but Ryan himself in later versions is located in hut nearest with Mud, perhaps he was moved there only in these pre-release versions.

Yes, we know this. This old Alpha quest is what I am working on at the moment.
But "Ryan's chest" could also just be a chest that is somehow linked with him and the mission to miscredit him. For example, it could be the chest of someone else and you need to steal something there and put it somewhere else etc. We don't know, but I try to come up with something good.

PS: In our mod, StartParcour adapts to story Gothic 2. So, this event part the beginning of the game has been changed. At all we plan change and Intro from original Gothic Sequel, after all according to our vision, hero should was freely to leave the Tempel and see clear sky over head without barrier. Upon reaching the surface, the tired and exhausted hero reaches the nearest Orc tent and falls into a deep sleep. (this is still a preliminary decision because we have not yet come up with a better explanation for such big visible changes within the valley of mines. On creation these changes was necessary at least a 2 week of time.)

I have also thought about changing the beginning of the Sequel more radically, but have not decided it completely yet. In our case we do not need nor want to harmonize it with Gothic 2, but more important: We will have a somehow different starting point since we do not build upon the original Gothic, but Orpheus, as we envision how the Gothic Alpha should have been. Therefore the end of our version of Gothic will change necessarily a bit and consequently there will be a few different conditions to start our Sequel with.
The dialogues say 6 months. I think that's more realistic.