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  1. View Forum Posts #1 Reply With Quote
    Lehrling Flatcher Goth's Avatar
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    Unknown lands of Morgrad

    It will not be about the territory of the same name in the west of the continent, but about all unknown territories in general. In games, many names of different territories were mentioned.

    In Gothic 1, these are: Archolos, Laran, and Timoris. Archolos is the mountain range in Myrtan most likely. Laran, in my opinion, is part of another territory that I will talk about later. Timoris. Almost nothing is known about him. He was ruled by a lord, but in Gothic it is another vague concept. We only know that Timoris was outside the island of Khorinis, and that he is not an independent state now. Perhaps this is a province of the Empire. I have a version that Timoris was once an independent kingdom that may have split off from Myrtana. Then Mirtana captured him by analogy with Nordmar, and Varant. But instead of giving him some kind of autonomy (as was the case with Nordmar and Varant), she simply annexed it to herself. For this reason, we do not see Timoris in Gothic 3. It also fits in with respect that Robar united 4 kingdoms including Myrtana. About the 4 kingdom was written in a comic book, and Ralf mentioned it in his artbook when it came to heraldry and languages.

    Little is known about the gothic sequel. In the game there is a document that tells a little about the structure of the world, but little can be learned from it. Most interesting is information about orcs. According to the Gothic version, the sequel, as I understand it, is 2 clans of orcs, and one of these clans is associated with the "bloody lands". Unfortunately, I have no idea what this means and how true it is.

    In Gothic 2 we find references to many lands. Moreover, many of them are on the graves of noble lords and barons. Of these lands we know: Kar, Waldfried, Siegburg, Stahl. There is almost no information about them. Unless from the names of some territories. Waldfried is most likely a forested area, and Siegburg is, as the name implies, a castle. Moreover, the castle is unlikely from the continent. We go further. South Islands, Eastern Archipelago, Araxos. We know more about the southern islands, but more on that later. The eastern archipelago remains a mystery. Mario fought with the orcs in the aquatorium of these lands. I assume that Laran, as well as the territories mentioned on the graves, are part of this archipelago. Islands and cities. Araxos is no less mysterious territory. Most likely this is a city that is located either on the eastern archipelago, or on the southern islands.

    Gothic 3. There is less information in it. Firstly, the northern plain was mentioned in the comic. It was also shown in intro Gothic 1, and the Gothic sequel. In Gothic 3, this territory is, but it is located far in the northwest. In general terms, it was empty, and there have long been no battles. Secondly, with a CM patch, a description appears in one shield. It states that it is the emblem of the league of cities: Trelis, Montera, Silden, and Geldern. The patch was released, and officially sponsored. Moreover, some elements including item descriptions were returned to the game according to the ideas of piranhas. There was also a mention of the northern lands, or the northern wasteland, which many call the lands of orcs. These lands were briefly described in the manual. So far, this is all the lands that were mentioned at the official, or almost official level.

    Now let's talk about the spin-offs. Although they are not an official continuation, they still represent more weight than fan fiction. There is no point in considering them all. Consider only Arcania, as well as stories from the cycle of "split virgin" (if I'm not mistaken). A bit of background. During the development of the Arcania, it was assumed not 2 islands, but more. In addition to the islands we knew were Korshaan and Torgaan. Subsequently, their bad meshes were finalized and added to Argaan. Mesh Korshaan became the southern part of Tooshoo. In turn, Torgaan became a jungle in the south of Setarrif. At the same time, Torgaan lost about half of its territories. In the arcane in the swamps you can find a shield. The description reads: "A shield was made in Korshaan, but not one person was not present at its creation." You would think that most likely it was made by orcs, but this is not so. In ”Gothic 4“, they planned to add another race. These are the lizards-men who guarded dragons in Gothic 2. Korshaan was supposedly their home island. Torgaan, in turn, was mentioned in the stories many times. It is known about him that the island is mainly covered in the jungle, and the bulk of the swarthy population lives there. These islands are in the lore of Arcania, but it is not clear how they should be represented. There are 2 options. The first - in spite of the fact that the meshes are present in Argaan, it is possible to present the islands in the same form. The second one is to make of them other islands that are completely different in structure, which retain only their description from the game. I like the second option more, and as an example you can cite the southern islands from the world map from WoG There Korshaan and Torgaan have a completely different structure. Next comes a little-known territory. As I wrote above, 4 islands were planned in Arcania, but this is not entirely true. There is information about the fifth island. It is called Jorgaan. It is presented according to another schematic description. Not a large island that is the size of the southern Stewark, covered in the jungle, and inhabited by other inhabitants. Perhaps even natives, but these are my guesses. It is also possible that this island was the second part of the unused Torgaan. All this information is quite controversial and not accurate, and it’s hard to search for sources. I hope knowledgeable people enlighten us. I made a map of Jorgaan, separating the very second part of Torgaan from the old map of Argaan. You can see it below. The last thing I did not mention is the city of Sendar from the comic book. There is no information about him, and for a less official version, he could have been in the north of Korshaan. Well, everything seems to be. If I forgot something, or distorted, correct me. Express your opinion

    Meshes of Korshaan, Torgaan (other map of Argaan):
    Spoiler:(zum lesen bitte Text markieren)

    Old map of Arcania:
    Spoiler:(zum lesen bitte Text markieren)

    Lizardmen:
    Spoiler:(zum lesen bitte Text markieren)

    Map of Jorgaan:
    Spoiler:(zum lesen bitte Text markieren)

  2. View Forum Posts #2 Reply With Quote
    General lali's Avatar
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    Seems you forgot Sendar, where Milten is coming from.
    Second, you only "know" that Tymoris is something outside the "islands" of Khorinis if you taking the Gothic 2 lore into account. Before that, it is quite possible that it was meant to be there. It was just forgotten as so many more stuff which was no topic anymore. They could have made something out of all the names they mentioned in their previous games, but they didn't. Wasted opportunities.
    Concerning Laran we also have nothing, so where this should have been located remains pure speculation.

    Archolos is a good example, why you cannot harmonize the lore of e.g. Gothic 1 and 3. According to Gothic 1 it should have been there, according to Gothic 3, it isn't. There is no way around that. And to find some creative solutions to explain this, doesn't make it better than to just admit that the devs made failures and it should have been different.

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    Lehrling Flatcher Goth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lali View Post
    Seems you forgot Sendar, where Milten is coming from.
    Second, you only "know" that Tymoris is something outside the "islands" of Khorinis if you taking the Gothic 2 lore into account. Before that, it is quite possible that it was meant to be there. It was just forgotten as so many more stuff which was no topic anymore. They could have made something out of all the names they mentioned in their previous games, but they didn't. Wasted opportunities.
    Concerning Laran we also have nothing, so where this should have been located remains pure speculation.

    Archolos is a good example, why you cannot harmonize the lore of e.g. Gothic 1 and 3. According to Gothic 1 it should have been there, according to Gothic 3, it isn't. There is no way around that. And to find some creative solutions to explain this, doesn't make it better than to just admit that the devs made failures and it should have been different.
    I mentioned Sеndar almost at the very end.

    The topic of Timoris interests me very much. As I have already said, such an assumption follows from the fact that there were 4 kingdoms on the continent, and not 3, as most players think. It is also worth mentioning a couple of other factors. Definitely Timoris was abroad the valley of mines, because the valley of mines is a colony in which it was divided. There is also no evidence that Timoris is in Khorinis. The document says that Lord Timoris appointed Burggraf Bergmar as a land judge in the lands around Khorinis. In Gothic 1, Khorinis is a province on the Continent, but in Gothic 2 it is an island. How can one be a land judge in a territory where there is no land? It is logical to assume that we are talking about the city and the land around it. Then Khorinis also cannot be Timoris. Remains in my opinion only the continent. Something like this was written by Don Esteban in the other topic.

    Laran. Well, actually this is my hunch. It is based only on the fact that Laran has nowhere else to be. At least this seems logical to me.

    Archolos is a mountainous region with a rather warm climate. There are no such regions on Khorinis, as well as on the southern islands. Because on the southern islands, Archolos is mentioned as an overseas region. This is Mirtana coming out. As far as I remember this, Esteban also wrote, or he cited the topic in which it was written. I don’t remember exactly.
    Last edited by Flatcher Goth; 02.09.2019 at 16:11.

  4. View Forum Posts #4 Reply With Quote
    General lali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flatcher Goth View Post
    I mentioned Sеndar almost at the very end.
    Oh right. Sorry, I stopped reading when you mentioned names from Arcania haha.

    The topic of Timoris interests me very much. As I have already said, such an assumption follows from the fact that there were 4 kingdoms on the continent, and not 3, as most players think. It is also worth mentioning a couple of other factors. Definitely Timoris was abroad the valley of mines, because the valley of mines is a colony in which it was divided. There is also no evidence that Timoris is in Khorinis. The document says that Lord Timoris appointed Burggraf Bergmar as a land judge in the lands around Khorinis. In Gothic 1, Khorinis is a province on the Continent, but in Gothic 2 it is an island. How can one be a land judge in a territory where there is no land? It is logical to assume that we are talking about the city and the land around it. Then Khorinis also cannot be Timoris. Remains in my opinion only the continent. Something like this was written by Don Esteban in the other topic.
    I don't know what people from other countries think, but in Germany here they definitely do not think that there are only "3" kingdoms. Its said not only in the Comic, but in the Gothic Intro too, "der Vereiniger der vier Reiche am myrtanischen Meer". So this is quite clear to everyone here I guess and there are discussions about "What is the fourth realm" since many years.

    From Gothic 1, you don't know whether or not Khorinis is a province on its own, or just the name of the city. Neither from the comic, nor from the Gothic handbook, nor from the game can we conclude, that it is more than the city itself, to my understanding. The document only says the following: Bergmar is a "Burggraf" (Burg = most likely the mountain fortress). So he was given the mountain fortress by his lord, that he may rule over this territory for him, who isn't able/willing/whatever to rule everything himself. It further says, that he is the "Burggraf zu Westfeld", that means, to my understanding, that his "Burggrafschaft" refers to a specific territory called 'Westfeld'. That means, the fortress he rules from, is located in a location called 'Westfeld', he rules over. Then the document calls him the "Landrichter über das Gut um Khorinis gelegen". We possibly can interpret this sentence as a definition of the location mentioned before. That means, "Westfeld" could be nothing else but "das Gut um Khorinis gelegen". The meaning of "Gut um Khorinis gelegen" is: The land surrounding Khorinis (the - back then quite big - city).
    If Bergmar rules over the whole land surrounding the city Khorinis, he isn't ruling over Khorinis itself. So there could be, for example, another "Graf" in this province, where the city is located. The "Stadtgraf" of Khorinis instead of a "Burggraf" for example.
    Also, if the terroritory Bergmar rules over, is called 'Westfeld', there is most likely another terroritory inside the same province or principality, for example, something like an "Ostfeld", someone else rules over. But all these "Grafschaften" or shires can simply be part of one big principality and this could be Tymoris itself. And whether this is one of the four kingdoms or not is not known. Myrtana also could consist of many, many small principalities like this, while the four kingdoms could be much bigger realms with their own cultures and their own various principalities (as it is the case with Myrtana, Varant and Nordmar). We don't know - but I like this more comprehensive vision much more. For me, it makes more sense and that's what I see in the Gothic 1 lore. But ya, it remains speculation.
    Last edited by lali; 02.09.2019 at 22:42.

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    Lehrling Flatcher Goth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lali View Post
    I don't know what people from other countries think, but in Germany here they definitely do not think that there are only "3" kingdoms. Its said not only in the Comic, but in the Gothic Intro too, "der Vereiniger der vier Reiche am myrtanischen Meer". So this is quite clear to everyone here I guess and there are discussions about "What is the fourth realm" since many years.

    From Gothic 1, you don't know whether or not Khorinis is a province on its own, or just the name of the city. Neither from the comic, nor from the Gothic handbook, nor from the game can we conclude, that it is more than the city itself, to my understanding. The document only says the following: Bergmar is a "Burggraf" (Burg = most likely the mountain fortress). So he was given the mountain fortress by his lord, that he may rule over this territory for him, who isn't able/willing/whatever to rule everything himself. It further says, that he is the "Burggraf zu Westfeld", that means, to my understanding, that his "Burggrafschaft" refers to a specific territory called 'Westfeld'. That means, the fortress he rules from, is located in a location called 'Westfeld', he rules over. Then the document calls him the "Landrichter über das Gut um Khorinis gelegen". We possibly can interpret this sentence as a definition of the location mentioned before. That means, "Westfeld" could be nothing else but "das Gut um Khorinis gelegen". The meaning of "Gut um Khorinis gelegen" is: The land surrounding Khorinis (the - back then quite big - city).
    If Bergmar rules over the whole land surrounding the city Khorinis, he isn't ruling over Khorinis itself. So there could be, for example, another "Graf" in this province, where the city is located. The "Stadtgraf" of Khorinis instead of a "Burggraf" for example.
    Also, if the terroritory Bergmar rules over, is called 'Westfeld', there is most likely another terroritory inside the same province or principality, for example, something like an "Ostfeld", someone else rules over. But all these "Grafschaften" or shires can simply be part of one big principality and this could be Tymoris itself. And whether this is one of the four kingdoms or not is not known. Myrtana also could consist of many, many small principalities like this, while the four kingdoms could be much bigger realms with their own cultures and their own various principalities (as it is the case with Myrtana, Varant and Nordmar). We don't know - but I like this more comprehensive vision much more. For me, it makes more sense and that's what I see in the Gothic 1 lore. But ya, it remains speculation.
    It is worth noting that the fourth kingdom is part of the Myrtan empire. As Ralf wrote in his artbook, "Each star of the coat of arms symbolizes the kingdom of the empire."

    Here is the coat of arms of Mirtana:
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/13yl...w?usp=drivesdk

    I believe that the status of a land judge can be regarded as the status of someone who can blame the fact that these territories belong to anyone. "land in the circle of Khorinis" (in the meaning of the city) does not necessarily mean that it is all the land around except the city itself. That is the central Khorinis. This was probably done in order not to confuse the Khorinis region with the island of Khorinis and the city of Khorinis.

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    General lali's Avatar
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    It was already clear in Gothic 1 that the fourth kingdom is part of the empire, since Rhobar is called the "Vereiniger" of the four kingdoms.

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    Legende der Amazonen Bisasam's Avatar
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    Morgrad has always been a mythical Sphere between the lands of the mortals and the lands of the gods. It was never meant to be a kingdom or a place where Humans can go after sailing a few weeks.


    "Das erinnert doch sehr erfreulich an das, was man sich als Gothicfan wünscht!"
    -Korallenkette

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    General lali's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bisasam View Post
    Morgrad has always been a mythical Sphere between the lands of the mortals and the lands of the gods. It was never meant to be a kingdom or a place where Humans can go after sailing a few weeks.
    What? Morgrad is the name of the whole physical world in Gothic, which is between the transcendent heaven and the underworld.

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    Lehrling Flatcher Goth's Avatar
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    Probably worth clarifying. A more correct version, said Lali, however, is not entirely accurate. Morgrad is the name of the universe (rather a galaxy) in which Gothic actions take place. Very often these names are applied to the planet Morgrad, which is the second planet in the system of its star (do not ask how I know this). Moreover, Morgrad (planet) is automatically also the world of Adanos.

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