[Flatcher Goth]

On the forum, I found unusual maps of the FRPG. They are strange in that they contain unusual, and conflicting information at first glance. On some maps it is indicated that Don Esteban was involved in their creation

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The first map of the Dexter bandit camp (or Fisk). Really weird why Fisk? Also on the map there are huts which were not in Gothic 2. In one of them lives a character named Sly. The map is strange, but there is nothing unusual here.

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The second map also does not stand out anything special. Yes, she is just as strange, and does not try to stick to Gothic 2, but I did not find any interesting marks here.

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The third map illustrates the valley of mines, and the land to the south. In those days, as far as I know, these lands did not have a name. It is interesting that Mike Hoge talked about the possibility of introducing land in the south of the mine valley into one of the games, even before the development of Gothic 2 began.

The map was made based on the Gothic sequel. Some elements that are not in the game are also present here, for example, the house of hunters, flooded swamps, a valley in the mountains, etc. Moreover, some elements do not fit into the concept of the Gothic sequel, such as the lack of a flooded new camp, an incomprehensible tower, which also existed in the following maps, but was not mentioned in the game. The Amazon camp on the site of the old estate looks especially strange ... It is also worth paying attention to the nickname of Don Esteban on the map

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And here is the map of the Amazon camp. In different maps we can trace how the island, on which the old estate is located, changed. Initially, it was an Amazon camp, about which there is no information in the Gothic sequel, or in its resources. Subsequently, the camp decided to slightly modify, and remove some of the elements outside the castle (or because of the schematic maps, just do not show these buildings). Unusually looks Temple, which is clearly not related to the gods known to us.

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Map of the bandit camp. It is not clear what kind of camp it is, because it is not shown in more than one of the maps. There is speculation that this is a bandit camp in Jarkendar, but the similarities are only in the mine. But even the mine has big differences.


These are not all maps, but I showed only those that raise questions. Maps for the most part were drawn by the FRPG participants, as I understand it, but many of the maps were supervised by Don Esteban. I do not exclude that some maps initially assumed a different structure of Gothic 2, and the Gothic sequel, in their alpha versions. Unfortunately, we do not have such information to confirm this. What are your thoughts on this?

[Feuerbarde]

FRPG = Forum RPG

The people who play this game have adapted the gothic universe a bit, I know. It has absolutely nothing to do with alpha or beta versions of gothic games. This is probably played by text in the forum.

The Don plays along and was probably the only one who could draw appealing, or wanted. But nice! Did he do well.

[Flatcher Goth]

FRPG = Forum RPG

The people who play this game have adapted the gothic universe a bit, I know. It has absolutely nothing to do with alpha or beta versions of gothic games. This is probably played by text in the forum.

The Don plays along and was probably the only one who could draw appealing, or wanted. But nice! Did he do well.

Locations and buildings that became known not so long ago look too suspicious, although these cards are very many years old. It is also worth paying attention to the words of Mike Hoge. A few days ago, Mike Hoge answered a question about Drakia. He said that they planned a possible continuation, after the Gothic sequel. He said that the lands south of the valley of the mines had a different name, and were basically only in thoughts. I really want to know what I missed out on this, since such unusual ideas and concepts were used by someone much earlier than they were available to the public. A similar story with alpha versions. I am not saying that any of this was used in practice, perhaps some ideas, or descriptions of Don Esteban, who might have such information at that time.

[Dodo1610]

Locations and buildings that became known not so long ago look too suspicious, although these cards are very many years old. It is also worth paying attention to the words of Mike Hoge. A few days ago, Mike Hoge answered a question about Drakia. He said that they planned a possible continuation, after the Gothic sequel. He said that the lands south of the valley of the mines had a different name, and were basically only in thoughts. I really want to know what I missed out on this, since such unusual ideas and concepts were used by someone much earlier than they were available to the public. A similar story with alpha versions. I am not saying that any of this was used in practice, perhaps some ideas, or descriptions of Don Esteban, who might have such information at that time.

Great conspiracy theory you have there don't forget you tin foil hat so Don Esteban won't erase your memories of it. Here a link to his secret stash of unreleased Gothic games

[Flatcher Goth]

Great conspiracy theory you have there don't forget you tin foil hat so Don Esteban won't erase your memories of it. Here a link to his secret stash of unreleased Gothic games

conspiracy theorists are looking for facts to confirm their point of view. I’m looking for facts to make it clear which point of view is correct. So this is not a conspiracy theory, but rather just a hypothesis

And still I would like to hear a real answer. Here's an example of another oddity noticed by one of the members of the forum. The first map of Esteban where Jarkendar appeared, was made several months before the release of Addon. Of course there is always a chance for a mistake. In that case it is minimal.

[Feuerbarde]

conspiracy theorists are looking for facts to confirm their point of view. I’m looking for facts to make it clear which point of view is correct. So this is not a conspiracy theory, but rather just a hypothesis

And still I would like to hear a real answer. Here's an example of another oddity noticed by one of the members of the forum. The first map of Esteban where Jarkendar appeared, was made several months before the release of Addon. Of course there is always a chance for a mistake. In that case it is minimal.

Of course you are right. It makes sense to ask. If you say that said map of Jarkendar was created by Don Esteban months before the addon, then it is close to the fact that he has processed verbal knowledge.

Yesterday, I already brought this topic to the attention of Don Esteban via PM. Whether he is on holiday at the moment or whatever I can not say. But think he will say something when time is up. Don Esteban is closer to the facts than self-feeding myths.

The relationship to PB at that time was a very tight one, but unfortunately this is not the way it used to be (I say from my point of view).

But what I can tell you, after so many years, I no longer see this as a big secret: In the time before the separation of PB and JoWood PM has been working on the fabled big patch (called the GB Patch). The patch was rather programming, graphic artists and 3D artists have Gothic 3 added to things that were obviously missing or more or less missing.

I can assure you that seaside towns and places have got docks and Molerats have been added as a monster yet. I saw it live myself, these are unofficial facts, not myths.

Do not be discouraged, it is nice and proper to deal with such historical backgrounds.

[Flatcher Goth]

Of course you are right. It makes sense to ask. If you say that said map of Jarkendar was created by Don Esteban months before the addon, then it is close to the fact that he has processed verbal knowledge.

Yesterday, I already brought this topic to the attention of Don Esteban via PM. Whether he is on holiday at the moment or whatever I can not say. But think he will say something when time is up. Don Esteban is closer to the facts than self-feeding myths.

The relationship to PB at that time was a very tight one, but unfortunately this is not the way it used to be (I say from my point of view).

But what I can tell you, after so many years, I no longer see this as a big secret: In the time before the separation of PB and JoWood PM has been working on the fabled big patch (called the GB Patch). The patch was rather programming, graphic artists and 3D artists have Gothic 3 added to things that were obviously missing or more or less missing.

I can assure you that seaside towns and places have got docks and Molerats have been added as a monster yet. I saw it live myself, these are unofficial facts, not myths.

Do not be discouraged, it is nice and proper to deal with such historical backgrounds.

I agree more. But what is this patch? Before, I had never been able to work with such materials, and even more so, to have them with me. Although I know about the presence of many hidden resources, and documents that remained with the former or current employees of the PB

[Feuerbarde]

Interpretation of me: Gothic 3 was like everyone knows very bent. There were certainly contracts for the pay for Gothic 3, from the point of view of JoWood PB was paid but the work on Gothic 3 is not completed as agreed. It was probably about how the finished work on Gothic 3 funded.

PB could not handle months without cash. So was negotiated and sought by PB was a kind of extended Gothic and at the same time a bug fix. So money would have come in and at the same time it could have been patched.

The name GB-Patch stems from the fact that one would have to recompile Gothic 3, including the entire world. It would have come to a guaranteed size of more than 1 GB.

One has never come to this agreement, it is also nonsensical to speak here now a page guilty. But I think that JoWood could not have financed this work and the time period at the time.

About that you would like such materials we do not want to speak here, the would be illegal and such a thing is here in the WoP rightly not welcome. But we're not talking about a dataset like the Gothic Alpha or Sequel versions that seem small in volume from today's perspective. We're talking about a lot of data, many, many GB. Something like this has no PB employee or former times lying so at home. Just to stop the speculation about it directly.

But I have a guess where the material of the started patch and the extension started. But I will not say that here. I'll guard myself third in the headlight cone of such unwanted attention. I think you understand that.

[lali]

Locations and buildings that became known not so long ago look too suspicious, although these cards are very many years old. It is also worth paying attention to the words of Mike Hoge. A few days ago, Mike Hoge answered a question about Drakia. He said that they planned a possible continuation, after the Gothic sequel. He said that the lands south of the valley of the mines had a different name, and were basically only in thoughts. I really want to know what I missed out on this, since such unusual ideas and concepts were used by someone much earlier than they were available to the public. A similar story with alpha versions. I am not saying that any of this was used in practice, perhaps some ideas, or descriptions of Don Esteban, who might have such information at that time.

What are you talking about? Can you give us a link to what Mike Hoge said "a few days ago"?
You say "after the Gothic sequel". But Mike was not even involved in the Gothic Sequel.

edit: Concerning Jharkendar. Do not forget, that this is not a big secret, just the name of the world you play in. Of course the press knew that there will be an Addon and they wrote about it. Maybe could test it etc. I do not know it, but it wouldn't be unusual at all if this name was in the press months before the release. So this is not even something which the administration here was in need to know "exclusively" or something.

[Flatcher Goth]

Interpretation of me: Gothic 3 was like everyone knows very bent. There were certainly contracts for the pay for Gothic 3, from the point of view of JoWood PB was paid but the work on Gothic 3 is not completed as agreed. It was probably about how the finished work on Gothic 3 funded.

PB could not handle months without cash. So was negotiated and sought by PB was a kind of extended Gothic and at the same time a bug fix. So money would have come in and at the same time it could have been patched.

The name GB-Patch stems from the fact that one would have to recompile Gothic 3, including the entire world. It would have come to a guaranteed size of more than 1 GB.

One has never come to this agreement, it is also nonsensical to speak here now a page guilty. But I think that JoWood could not have financed this work and the time period at the time.

About that you would like such materials we do not want to speak here, the would be illegal and such a thing is here in the WoP rightly not welcome. But we're not talking about a dataset like the Gothic Alpha or Sequel versions that seem small in volume from today's perspective. We're talking about a lot of data, many, many GB. Something like this has no PB employee or former times lying so at home. Just to stop the speculation about it directly.

But I have a guess where the material of the started patch and the extension started. But I will not say that here. I'll guard myself third in the headlight cone of such unwanted attention. I think you understand that.

I agree with this opinion. Perhaps I can sometimes be misunderstood, but I believe that only the old and current employees of the PB have the right to publish such information. Perhaps if some materials are transferred with the condition of non-disclosure, it will be dishonorable, and dastardly, the fact of transferring these materials to third parties.

What are you talking about? Can you give us a link to what Mike Hoge said "a few days ago"?
You say "after the Gothic sequel". But Mike was not even involved in the Gothic Sequel.

edit: Concerning Jharkendar. Do not forget, that this is not a big secret, just the name of the world you play in. Of course the press knew that there will be an Addon and they wrote about it. Maybe could test it etc. I do not know it, but it wouldn't be unusual at all if this name was in the press months before the release. So this is not even something which the administration here was in need to know "exclusively" or something.

This is Mike Hoge's personal correspondence, with the "one" person. Unfortunately, I do not have the right to publish it in full, but only in general terms to say what this means. In any case, I did not concentrate on this. I could point out all the “facts” that were mentioned by the PB and Don Esteban, but I don’t see my own benefit in defaming someone with such vague evidence. Moreover, it seems dishonorable to me.
Let it be done by people who have evidence, personal correspondence, prohibited materials, etc.
I am only building a hypothesis based on the information available to everyone without entering into conflict. I see more sense in this than in the endless wars "who is right?" . However, I am interested in the opinions of Don Esteban in this regard.

[HerrFenrisWolf]

The patch was rather programming, graphic artists and 3D artists have Gothic 3 added to things that were obviously missing or more or less missing.

I can assure you that seaside towns and places have got docks and Molerats have been added as a monster yet. I saw it live myself, these are unofficial facts, not myths.

Wait what? Woher weißt du das? Könntest du mir eine PN dazu schreiben und ein wenig ins Detail gehen?

[Feuerbarde]

Wait what? Woher weißt du das? Könntest du mir eine PN dazu schreiben und ein wenig ins Detail gehen?

Dazu brauche ich wohl keine PM schreiben. Ich weis das weil ich zu der Zeit bei PB vor Ort in Essen war und gesehen habe wie daran gearbeitet wurde. Das ist ewig lange her, ich könnte jetzt keine Zeichnung davon anfertigen.

[Don-Esteban]

Sorry, I don't have read all the posts.
Concerning the maps: This all are maps from our forum RPG. Users write with alter egos - charakters - in this forum fictional adventures (in the Gothic world) and interact with other users for writing together. The members of the forum RPG have invented some new things never exist in the Gothic games, new towns, villages, landscapes - or we have changed well-known locations like Onars farm ...
Because all member should knew the topography we have drawn some maps over the years. For the gothic games you can ignore these maps, they are a (fan) fiction within a (developer) fiction. They have nothing to do with the sequel or any ideas from Piranha Bytes.

For example Drakia was invented from a former forum meber with nickname Gor Na Drak (later he changed his name to Carthos). He wants to eternise his name, so he named the village Drakia. The town Gorthar (and a whole story arch) was invented by former forum member Superluemmel who was a passionate fantasy writer.

(I think, I have written about the same topic some time ago in another thread.)

The first map of Esteban where Jarkendar appeared, was made several months before the release of Addon. Of course there is always a chance for a mistake. In that case it is minimal.

Sounds strange to me. What brings you to this theory?




Edit:
have found the other thread:
https://forum.worldofplayers.de/foru...ia-and-Gorthar

[Flatcher Goth]

Sorry, I don't have read all the posts.
Concerning the maps: This all are maps from our forum RPG. Users write with alter egos - charakters - in this forum fictional adventures (in the Gothic world) and interact with other users for writing together. The members of the forum RPG have invented some new things never exist in the Gothic games, new towns, villages, landscapes - or we have changed well-known locations like Onars farm ...
Because all member should knew the topography we have drawn some maps over the years. For the gothic games you can ignore these maps, they are a (fan) fiction within a (developer) fiction. They have nothing to do with the sequel or any ideas from Piranha Bytes.

For example Drakia was invented from a former forum meber with nickname Gor Na Drak (later he changed his name to Carthos). He wants to eternise his name, so he named the village Drakia. The town Gorthar (and a whole story arch) was invented by former forum member Superluemmel who was a passionate fantasy writer.

(I think, I have written about the same topic some time ago in another thread.)




Sounds strange to me. What brings you to this theory?




Edit:
have found the other thread:
https://forum.worldofplayers.de/foru...ia-and-Gorthar

Thanks for the answer.
Okay, I will believe you. However, such coincidences could not go unnoticed. They look too strange. A few coincidences, which describe practically in detail some locations from the sequel, for example. It’s also difficult for me to believe that Drachia (namely the land, not the name) was invented from nowhere, and then approved by the piranhas as part of the territories that did not fall into the game (according to Mike Hoge).

Regarding Jarkenjar. This is not accurate information; it is just an observation of the archives of one forum member. Believe it or not, everyone has the right to choose. I am of the opinion that this is unlikely. Moreover, there is no direct evidence for this. In other matters, this is not so significant for me. As I said, I’m not going to blame anyone.

[Don-Esteban]

Here the discussion from January 2002 about the user-planned expansion of the forum rpg area:
http://forenarchiv.worldofplayers.de....php?id=117892
Members of the guild "Old Camp" invented the village with all in and the name came from User Carthos (his former nickname: Gor Na Drak)

Regarding Jarkenjar. This is not accurate information; it is just an observation of the archives of one forum member.

What a pity! If I understand correctly, you can show no facts. There are no basics for your claim.

[lali]

Thanks for the answer.
Okay, I will believe you. However, such coincidences could not go unnoticed. They look too strange. A few coincidences, which describe practically in detail some locations from the sequel, for example. It’s also difficult for me to believe that Drachia (namely the land, not the name) was invented from nowhere, and then approved by the piranhas as part of the territories that did not fall into the game (according to Mike Hoge).

[...] Moreover, there is no direct evidence for this.

You got at least a link with public history about the invention of the name, which you can consider as "evidence", while you claim, that Mike Hoge has said something, but obviously not in public. So how can we consider this as evidence on the other hand? Also, the answer of Mike could easily be influenced by the sort of question he got, if it was manipulating of some sort (I don't know). But! It would be very interesting, if its true.
And if its true what you say, maybe this former user had spoken to Mike Hoge back in the days and got the name from talks with him. It wasn't uncommon to meet these guys and even today there are community meetings, where you can meet and spend time with Piranha Bytes members at the GamesCom etc. So why not?

[Feuerbarde]

Da mein Englisch sehr, sehr rostig ist schreibe ich mal auf deutsch. Don-Esteban so wie ich den russischen User verstanden habe, meint er die Karte wurde so zu einer Zeit erstellt mit teilweise Orten/Bezeichnungen - die zu dieser Zeit nicht öffentlich bekannt gewesen sind, später aber so real in die Lore gewandert sind weil PB sie so realisiert hat. Ich weis selber das viele von PB früher sehr offen per PM, oder Mail mit verschiedenen Leuten geschrieben haben. Gerade Dir gegenüber werden sie da auch sehr offen gewesen sein. Die Frage ist ob solche Informationen von Dir oder anderen Mitspielern des Foren-RPG eingeflossen sein könnten, oder bestätigbar eingeflossen sind. Es geht ja so wie ich das sehe um Belege, wenn sie auch noch so minimal sind (und aus einfachen Bemerkungen grafische Umsetzungen [auch nur teilweise z.B.] entstanden sind). Ich bin unabhängig davon immer noch sehr glücklich lieber Don-Esteban, Du hast mir eine riesige Freude gemacht. Das vergesse ich Dir nie.

Ich finde es schön wenn Leute sich da so tief mit beschäftigen, auch wenn wir wissen das es PB nie mit Lorentreue so sehr genau genommen hat.

Was lali sagt hat zu 99% immer Hand und Fuß, ich weis mit welcher Sorgfallt er und seine Teammitglieder arbeiten. Nicht umsonst unterstütze ich die Jungs gerne soweit ich das kann. Es wäre sinnvoll bei Mike Hog anzufragen ob man diese nicht öffentliche Aussage mit seinem OK öffentlich diskutieren dürfte. Mit einem ich habe gehört und ich habe unter der Hand kommt man nicht auf einen Beleg der einen in der Gothic-History weiterbringt.

Flatcher Goth It would be useful to ask Mike Hog if you should publicly discuss this non-public statement with his OK.

[Flatcher Goth]

You got at least a link with public history about the invention of the name, which you can consider as "evidence", while you claim, that Mike Hoge has said something, but obviously not in public. So how can we consider this as evidence on the other hand? Also, the answer of Mike could easily be influenced by the sort of question he got, if it was manipulating of some sort (I don't know). But! It would be very interesting, if its true.
And if its true what you say, maybe this former user had spoken to Mike Hoge back in the days and got the name from talks with him. It wasn't uncommon to meet these guys and even today there are community meetings, where you can meet and spend time with Piranha Bytes members at the GamesCom etc. So why not?

About the correspondence. As I said, I was banned from publishing it. The question was: “what can you say about Dracia? Was it planned?”, Mike Hoge answered: “Actually, yes. But it wasn’t what you might think. After the Gothic sequel, when Gothic 2 was not planned , part of our team had thoughts about continuing. There was an idea to add land in the south of the mine valley, but these lands were conceptually different from what will be called Draka in the future. In particular, another name. I can only say that for the most part these were mental thoughts” This is not a quote, but my adaptation of what was written to not break the rules. In general, everything was written like that. It was a surprise for me. Of course, Mike talked about what they would call Drakia in the future, but at the time of creation it was naturally a different name. According to my version, this was exactly why PB not against the map, where there was an extended version of Khorinis, even if the form was changed to be more beautiful.

UPD: Sporthistoriker Unfortunately, Mike's answer is a pure coincidence that occurred once in a thousand. It is not known when he will answer next time ...

[lali]

Was lali sagt hat zu 99% immer Hand und Fuß, ich weis mit welcher Sorgfallt er und seine Teammitglieder arbeiten. Nicht umsonst unterstütze ich die Jungs gerne soweit ich das kann. Es wäre sinnvoll bei Mike Hog anzufragen ob man diese nicht öffentliche Aussage mit seinem OK öffentlich diskutieren dürfte. Mit einem ich habe gehört und ich habe unter der Hand kommt man nicht auf einen Beleg der einen in der Gothic-History weiterbringt.

Also bei vielen Sachen spekulieren wir ja auch nur, aber das sagen wir dann ja auch dazu. In diesem Fall hab ich keine Ahnung. Klar könnte es sein, dass Mike Hoge da mal sowas geplant hat, ich weiß nur nichts darüber.

Mal so als allgemeine Anregung. Klar antwortet Mike nur selten mal auf persönliche Anfragen. Aber es wäre doch sicher machbar, sich mal um ein Live-Interview zu bemühen. Sich mit ihm auf einen Kaffee treffen und ihm eine ganze Reihe von Fragen stellen, die man zuvor in der Community gesammelt hat. Und halt kein Scheiß, der schon in hundert Interviews gefragt wurde, sondern nur solches Insiderwissen, Details zur Entwicklungsgeschichte, verworfenen Ideen usw. Dann könnte man das auch veröffentlichen und es käme der ganzen Community zugute.

The question was: “what can you say about Dracia? Was it planned?”, Mike Hoge answered: “Actually, yes. But it wasn’t what you might think. After the Gothic sequel, when Gothic 2 was not planned , part of our team had thoughts about continuing. There was an idea to add land in the south of the mine valley, but these lands were conceptually different from what will be called Draka in the future. In particular, another name.

This sounds a bit strange. After the Sequel, but before Gothic 2 was planned? Then maybe in the conception phase of Gothic 2? Wasn't the main reason to cancel the Sequel, that the publisher wanted a Gothic 2 (with a new world etc.) instead?

[Flatcher Goth]

This sounds a bit strange. After the Sequel, but before Gothic 2 was planned? Then maybe in the conception phase of Gothic 2? Wasn't the main reason to cancel the Sequel, that the publisher wanted a Gothic 2 (with a new world etc.) instead?

As I understand it, we are talking about Gothic 2, in a slightly different sense of it. In this game, the lore and the plot of the Gothic sequel would be taken into account. I think that there are hardly any concepts left for this part of the game, because at that moment they had not finished the gothic sequel.