[Psimek]

Don Esteban Called me Thief, because i used few artworks for my movie, where i explained artworks. It is really terrible behavior... What is interesting JohnnyB in his movies used artworks, and Don Esteban added movie on main page of wog (JOHNNYB not thief???)... It is really stupidd.. I cant understand this. Also i defend JohnnyB, and tell Dmitry for respect decision and leave topic..... but after this, i got ban from Esteban for 'TROLLING' it is really abuse. ABUSE.
I tried to calm the situation and I was treated by Esteban like trash. Also JohnnyB told me - I was unfair banned.

[SequelYourNightmar]

lali, do not attribute "insults" to honest and clear german fans. (~98% users forum)
You understood perfectly what it was said to you and the several secret persons, who are hiding under the robes invisible.
Instead of directly answering the question you start to act tactics "the best defense is an attack" thereby distracting the attention of other people from the main "That you use the ideas from the documentation without the permission of Stefan Nyul and at the same time declare that your mod follows the law"
Only pathetic excuses, which only shows more of your hypocrisy. Instead of simply taking the truth to heart and repenting of what you have done, you begin to look for an excuse for your dastardly cunning actions. x1 to hypocrisy

you strongly try to hide his true face for a long time thinking about what to answer in front of the public so as to be right and show themselves as "white and fluffy" (whom you are not exactly)
x2 to hypocrisy

It is important for you to maintain good relations with the leaders of this site, so as not to lose the possibility of obtaining prohibited material, but you will deny it in every way in front of everyone and in front of them. (Sources - you know the truth..)
x3 to hypocrisy

How can you talk about respect? If you do not respect the person whose material you use and take ideas from it without authors permission? x4 to hypocrisy

If and after that you look for new excuses or something like that, you just show your hypocritical side five times. x5?

If you don't want to rip the hypocritical mask off your face, I'll do it myself. You can't hide, I've been watching your behavior for years, and I know who you really are...

You - a man of six, which is important to have a permanent source of supplying you with prohibited content. You will do everything possible to rise in their eyes. You doing it and now. Sycophant.

There is no place for hypocrites among my friends.. Yes, you were right to say that you chose the other side, you chose the side of sneaky, cunning people unable to admit their mistakes. Don't write me anything else. I will make sure that Ivan and Nikita follow my decision, no help, no materials you will more not get from us.

Hm, sometimes have to take a step back to take two steps forward..
sometimes have to throw up something to get something...

"Hypocrite: Stefan, can we use ideas from your documentation?!
- Stefan Nyul: Yes, of course, just buy copyright on docs from me.
- Hypocrite: No, Stefan, we're not buying it out, the damn money, again , oh my God! We want to get files for free, we're special people. You only do not get angry with us, but we will just take and use docs regardless of your opinion! Our project is truly legal and does not violate any copyright. Ya ya...
- Stefan Nyul: *facepalm*"

------------------------------------------

For All hypocrities:

it is just most fatality mistake little part greedy and hypocrities fans for all history gothic community, which was just inevitable

All people which has sequel before leak will curse this damned sequel for the rest of himself days. A good example of how one thing from a sweet fairy tale he became for you a real nightmare...

*Man falls, shows his face and holds the answer before fans*

*Conscience burns the heart out, game over*

Can just fall on your knees and pray for forgiveness before God for the hypocrisy and deceitful excuses in front of all the international Gothic community.

If you do this you will atone for those thousands of fans from whom you brazenly concealed and continue to hide some files.

God is omnipotent, he sees everything..

[lali]

You call me a hypocrite no matter what I say I guess, so there is no real sense to continue this. But I try it one more time, because I can't let you say such things about me and because I like you, as I always said. And even if I think that you are having some problems concerning aggression and obsession to this whole topic, I still have respect for you. Although you show me none.

(1) You say, I did not answer directly. I did.

(2) Concerning the law. Please understand this: It was stated to us in the past by former developers, that it is no problem to reconstruct assets and using ideas from the Sequel. Legal problems would occur only if you use assets from the build directly. Therefore we decided to do it this way.

(3) I - personally -, as I have stated here openly several times have NOT a problem if others like you or Moe here are using Sequel assets directly. Because, like you, I think, that the law in this case is not necessarily in harmony with ethics. Law and ethics are two different things. I share the view of catalinux, that the sequel is basically abandonware and could be considered as such. I cannot understand why you are attacking me as you do, while we basically have the same view and just decided differently.

I have explained to you AND in this forum, that I think like you, that it shouldn't be an ethical problem to use the assets and that the main reason I don't do it, is, that I work together with professional programmers who simply cannot afford to risk their profession by being involved in copyright infringements. If I would work completely alone on this mod, maybe I would have decided like you. Who knows. So I definitely do not condemn you for your decision. And yes, I would like to have our mod published on this site someday and yes, this is another reason to do it as we do it. This is not a secret and nothing I try to hide.

(4) You want me to admit "what I have done". I have admitted it and I admit it again: I use ideas from the sequel and I reconstruct assets, in some cases, very similar to identical ones. I also have admitted more than enough, that in some cases we use some placeholders of original assets, which we will replace as development continues. Is that what you want? There you have it, again.

(5) "Show yourself as white and fluffy". I surely am not doing this. Alone the fact that I admitted to have and work with the assets, which are now leaked to everyone, is a "grey area" in legal terms. I was in dispute with people here about it, I have shared my view on the ethical side of all this many times. Its unfair to accuse me of not being honest in this case.

(6) If I am trying to keep a good relationship to people, it is, because I generally try to keep a good relationship to EVERYONE. That might not work sometimes, if I get angry about someone (like you sometimes), but overall I try to do it, because it is of no help to ruin relationships. But is there a secret reason behind it like "obtaining prohibited material"? No, that is not the reason. I think overall, we have everything we need. Yes, it would be nice to have older Alpha versions, to see all this stuff and the materials. I am interested in this, you know. Many are, like you. And I always supported your endeavours to obtain something new. But I do not think that anyone here has something like this. And if I do not get it, thats not a problem for me, because we reconstruct it ourselves anyway. The only reason that I do not want to ruin relationships is: I want to be in this community and I like the german Gothic Community and if I have a bad relationship to people here, its no fun being here.

(6) You call me "sycophant", while I was in dispute with moderators and admins here for a long time about the use of all this stuff. I also wanted to help you to get a news for the video of yours, which did not work, after you started to spread it so aggressively. I also think that the ban of Psimek was unfair or a mistake, because he did not take the artworks from World of Gothic, but he took them from Ralphs website with his permission. I was never shy to state this. Concerning the case, I was on your side more or less. But I couldn't stand on your side, while your were insulting people with every post. This ruined the case. Although I have much respect for the russian culture, I really do not know how you handle it there, but in Germany its like this: As soon as you insult someone and as soon as you get personal instead of staying neutral, your arguments are lost already.

(7) I won't reply to your religious fanaticism at the end of your post. You are just going too far.

[SequelYourNightmar]

I see..

I can't be sure of everything that's written and said here. It could just be a beautiful word game. I don't care what you say, even if it's true, I care what you feel right now, you can hide the truth from me, you can hide it from the fans, even from God himself, but you will cannot hide it from himself and if there is some lie, it will just torment your conscience until the end of days...

You're saying that the only problem will arise if you directly use the game files of the sequel. And now remember how much you and others who have documentation squeeze it in their hands.

Is it legal to use ideas from documentation? Then what's the problem? Then why did you Germans shout that it was forbidden? I am amazed at your flexibility, your resourcefulness, your cunning, that you have more than enough, you are smart and calculating. But where was your mind when you allowed yourself to brag about this documentation in the public domain (In a very hidden manner, but I as a psychologist can see the reasons and signs of bragging)

Why don't you want the polish Gothic sequel project not to be recreated according to the documentation because they are bad guys or maybe because you really just don't want to hand over this documentation to anyone. (Not to you specifically but to all persons in Germany who has it, bet - at least 5 people on this forum. Why do you need this documentation if you don't even use it? for the personal satisfaction of your ego? and here is I again unraveled you)

How much are the copyright of the documentation?1000€, 2000€? Why don't you want people to buy out the rights to this documentation, why don't you want people to buy out the rights to the whole sequel and alpha project? WHY?

Give us the opportunity to buy the rights to the materials!

And now for the receipt of prohibited materials and factors affecting it:

1. This is a personal relationship between the employee and the person who applied for the materials. If they are friends , they immediately agree on the terms of the transaction, if enemies, then the person simply has no chance of receiving content from this source.

2. If there is a neutral relation between the source and the subject, then first of all the nationality of the subject who applied for the material has a key role here.

It is obvious that it is more likely to get something exactly German fan (if Source have german nationality) who somehow positively manifested himself at the forum. But if the materials ask Russian or Polish, no matter what, even if he is 100% trust able person not to violate the terms of non-proliferation (if they are given to him and announced (!)) then it is less likely to get the materials than the German people. His authority in various fan communities, it does not matter, only for the German. (!)

2. The second factor is the status fan. Let's take the same JohnnyB, he was the editor of ARHN, which registered its own copyright. Of course, this played into his hands in the matter of obtaining prohibited material.

3. Tactics and manner of communication with the source. (Respectful treatment, unobtrusive questions, any additional suggestions)
4. The time at which the person applied for materials has no special role, so it will be in this place.

5. The mood of the source at a particular moment has even less impact than the time at which the request was received. I put it in the last place, it does not have any value in this matter, if a person is sensible and reasonable.


As we can see, it is much easier to agree on getting something if you are the face of any company or office, and not just an ordinary fan. This gives you obviously advantageous position and therefore do not need to praise yourself that "Look what a hero I am! I managed to got for this material and you didn't!"many people in your place would also be able to get it, it's about understanding communication with the source and nothing more (!) Other people don't even have the ability to get anything simply because their attempt is nipped initially. You have nothing to be proud of!

You would have been able to avoid this situation if you just gave the material to especially ardent fans, the issue would have been resolved by itself, do you still do not understand.

You accuse me of insulting people, and I accuse you that yours acts (JohnnyB, Lali) is sources create those insults, becouse you allowing yourself to brag about the material in the public domain. It's your fault, not my.
You get stuff that you can't give to others and you're not sure about it going public in the future, so why are you bragging about it in the public domain? You amuse your ego, don't you? Have you ever thought that this way you provoke other people to aggression, because they also want to get it?! Or do you do it on purpose to annoy them? then why are you surprised now, it's all your fault. You were obliged to keep your mouth shut or just give the material to particularly fanatical people to prevent the spread of the conflict because all this can end very badly... People, think about it and draw the right conclusions before it's too late..

[Mirtheck]

I'm new to this discussion but from what I can tell, there really isn't a need for that amount of emotional hostility. No one wants you any harm and we sympathise with members of the gothic community unrelated to where they are from or what they believe in. But judging form the impression I am getting from you right now, by how you depict yourself, I don't think you are looking to constructively debate any matter here.

Please don't automatically assume that most people here are having a grudge against you and your ambitions with the Sequel and please refrain from spreading all that negativity. I'd love to see what you guys can make with what we currently have from the Sequel but it would be a real shame to drown your project in all this nonrelevant drama.

[lali]

Is it legal to use ideas from documentation? Then what's the problem? Then why did you Germans shout that it was forbidden?

Who was shouting that it was forbidden to use ideas from it? It was about using digital assets all the time and uploading them on World of Gothic servers. And yes, I did not understand the exact reasoning too at first. At the beginning, to my understanding, the people responsible for this forum could not know themselves what was going on and what they could tolerate and what not. It was confusing for everyone. But now its clear and it was explained by the administration more than enough.

Why don't you want the polish Gothic sequel project not to be recreated according to the documentation because they are bad guys or maybe because you really just don't want to hand over this documentation to anyone.

Look: When I give a promise not to publish something, I do not publish it. This is the reason. But no one said to me that I cannot talk about the existence of these documents (which was known because of MaGoths screenshots anyway). Maybe that was not a good idea, but people here asked whether or not we know what was planned in the later stages of the sequel story and where we know it from. I answered, that we know it from the documentation. I did not wanted to lie about "where" we know it from and I also did not want to lie by saying "just speculation" or even "its just our own ideas", while its not. And because we are using such ideas we are openly mentioning the authors on our thread (and in the credits of our project), as you might know. Also I wanted to spread the message. I wanted the Sequel and everything get known and appreciated more. I was very enthusiastic about the Sequel and its (and the alpha) lore as it got known in public and I talked a lot about it in the forum, which was annoying for many people here.

Do I want to have this for myself? No. I would be happier, if everyone who is interested in it could have it someday. We do this mod and our own documentation not only for ourselves but also for the people interested in this. Even if we cannot publish the original documentation, they will get a much richer documentation done by us, explaining what was planned originally, what we changed etc. And to be honest: I am far less proud about the content of the documentation than I am about the ideas we developed ourselves for this project. I am convinced of our project because of these additional ideas of our own and not because of the documentation.

Now, what about the polish project? I said to you what my reason is for not giving this stuff to others in general. If you want an additional reason why I do not want to give it to the polish project especially, I have answered this already. Because this is a disrespectful guy spreading hatred in clearly fascist language. Avallach was affirming that. I cannot support someone who is acting like this. The docs you are talking about are in the hands of many people. As everyone knows, MaGoth was one of them, who showed excerpts of it in public (which I do not want to judge by mentioning it). And you know that he isn't the only Russian. If you want those guys to create their mod according to the documentation, you need to give it to them yourself. I will not support them.

Other than that, I think that people will be happy to be able to play different versions of a finished Sequel. There is a russian, a polish and a german project going on. Thats cool.

How much are the copyright of the documentation?1000€, 2000€? Why don't you want people to buy out the rights to this documentation, why don't you want people to buy out the rights to the whole sequel and alpha project? WHY?

Give us the opportunity to buy the rights to the materials!

Who should give you this opportunity? Look: If it would be possible to just "buy" the rights, so that we would be able to publish all these resources, I would be one of the first to spend money for this endeavour. But this is not how things work here. You cannot just buy the rights. If you are really earnest about this, hire a lawyer. I guess that you would need to pay him thousands of euros in advance before you even get to know what the exact legal situation is. Because he would need to find that out for you, BEFORE you could even think about obtaining these rights. And possibly he would call you back a while later, saying: Sorry, I cannot help you with this matter, because I do not get access to the material I would need access to. There are things which are closed, locked away. You can't get access to them. Therefore no one here is doing that. But I am not a lawyer myself. So as I said: Take your money and ask a lawyer about it, if you want to find that out. This is the only thing you can do.

[SequelYourNightmar]

Who was shouting that it was forbidden to use ideas from it? It was.

https://forum.worldofplayers.de/foru...ic-Alpha/page4
https://forum.worldofplayers.de/foru...ic-Alpha/page5

Look: When I give a promise not to publish something, I do not publish it. This is the reason. But no one said to me that I cannot talk about the existence of these documents (which was known because of MaGoths screenshots anyway). Maybe that was not a good idea, but people here asked whether or not we know what was planned in the later stages of the sequel story and where we know it from. I answered, that we know it from the documentation. I did not wanted to lie about "where" we know it from and I also did not want to lie by saying "just speculation" or even "its just our own ideas", while its not.

When you make a promise of non-proliferation, you should automatically keep your mouth shut, because the slightest mistake, the slightest word, can lead to a fatal mistake. Judging by the way you deftly find the right words to my questions, for you it would not be difficult to do. You could say something like "It doesn't matter. You'll know it when the time comes."

Do I want to have this for myself? No. I would be happier, if everyone who is interested in it could have it someday.

I believe in it, but I don't believe that your sources think so also I would Like these people to take off their masks and speak out about it.

About docs - if I get it without non-proliferation conditions, I'll give it. I believe that there is absolutely no principled in is to that the hide, compress, to be greedy. These are not my materials, I am not their author, I have the right not to give only what I have the right to. Some people can invent false information about what they promised someone, although in fact they did not promise anything. (This is the master level of Hypocrisy, and I know who can own him )

[lali]

https://forum.worldofplayers.de/foru...ic-Alpha/page4
https://forum.worldofplayers.de/foru...ic-Alpha/page5

The guys were making jokes, without having anything and without knowing what you are talking about...

When you make a promise of non-proliferation, you should automatically keep your mouth shut [...]

If you are a gaming magazine and you get something you should not spread in public, that does not mean that you cannot speak about it. Yes, it might not have been a good idea to do that, as seen here. But I have decided as I did and I stand for that.

Judging by the way you deftly find the right words to my questions, for you it would not be difficult to do. You could say something like "It doesn't matter. You'll know it when the time comes."

Yes true, I could have done that too. But I decided differently and was open about it. And like you I have still the hope, that someday, maybe, it will be possible to publish all the stuff without legal issues. But its not today. And its not of any help if we fight against each other and if you continue to insult people.

[Don-Esteban]

Die ZA einiger gesperrter Benutzer wurden gesperrt.

[Voron256]

• Phantom 95 asked me to send it here.
• Employees of companies have the right to say that they do have any not public materials, but only if they sign a non-proliferation (NDA) for the violation of which they should be punished. In this case, the decision to refuse to transfer the material is perceived objectively and clearly, without causing any aggression and indignation.
  
  Another situation is when a person receives material without signing the non-proliferation Treaty and is no longer responsible for the transfer, in which case you need to keep your mouth shut if you have given your word about non-proliferation or if you just want to keep the material secret from the community for personal reasons. (They are usually not always good)
  Yes, I understand that when receiving such material, a person sometimes loses control over himself, he wants to tell others about it as soon as possible, he wants to boast to get even more joy and satisfaction, but all this is vile actions from the point of view of humanity and from the point of view of respect for the source and maintaining good relations with him. So not only do you risk losing trust and connections to the source so you still provoke other people to aggression and indignation. The more such people want to get this stuff the more they are willing to go for the sake of getting this stuff, sometimes it can even take catastrophic consequences if you continue to play on the nerves of such people and continue to brag and make fun of them. How old are you to do this shit, 10-15? as small children boast to be do faces with a view they say "licked and just look what I got" it is good , yeah ? (This is not addressed specifically to you, I'm talking about all such humans)
  
  So who has a cleaner conscience - this is a big question Think about it.
  
  to claim that the Polish guys openly use the assets of the Gothic sequel and say that it is legal, but at the same time trying to use something secretly and cunningly from the prohibited content in your project, it is a very ugly act, and to put it mildly, it is despicable. For example, personally, my conscience would not allow me to do this, if I myself have sins in something like this, then I simply will not accuse anyone because of this, and you do it.
  
  You said that the sequel leak destroyed the possibility of a cunning and secretive use of the resources of the Gothic sequel. So you thought about it, this thought came in your head does not accidentally and you thought that this is normal. But that's not normal. It is better to be an honest and fair person who can say "Yes! I use the source materials of the Gothic sequel and alpha version, because I'm sure that no one cares about these materials, because I'm sure that they are not interested in anyone from the copyright holders and do not cause anyone pain" than to be a cunning and agile man, trying very secretly and imperceptibly to use some prohibited resources and then declare to the public about full compliance with copyright. You can't do it, the conscience should stop you from such actions.
  
  For example, you integrated prohibited ai_testlevel.3ds in Orpheus. I'm not against it, I want it to be, but after such action it is obvious your desire, something is very, very secretly and quietly use in mod. Then do not say to the public that it is completely legal, do not deceive people.
  Next - you talk about ethics all the time about respect. You said that the use of ideas from the documentation is not prohibited. Okay, but if you're talking about respect, then you should have personally texted Stefan Nyul on Facebook and notified him that you were going to use his ideas in your mod. (Modbuilders act in the same way when they want to use content from another mod)
• You called the Polish sequel a sad shit because you knew they couldn't develop their project with documentation. Especially since you yourself openly stated "Yes, I sincerely hope that the Polish project will not be developed in accordance with the documentation"
  And all who have it here, dream that it didn't fall into hands of the Polish team, it isn't necessary to deny it, you not in that position that to do it, after all these circumstances and details.

[BugLuke]

Dein bester Gothic Moment:

Verpiss Dich.

[TheLongestDay]

Verstehe ich das richtig, dass hier die Auffassung vertreten wird, dass man nicht das Recht hätte, auf Anfragen von Dritten nicht zu antworten, wenn man keine Verschwiegenheitserklärung abgegeben hat?

[Voron256]

"Again sent that wrote me Phantom95"

the basic rules that need to understand the people who are entrusted with some forbidden materials, it:
a) No need to brag about it, especially publicly
b.) No need to give any hints that you have at all materials.
C.) you do Not need to transfer the materials to your friends, if you received them on the terms of non-proliferation, wanted to give something - asked the source, he allowed, so you can give. But do not act as acted pole JohnnyB, who secretly distributed materials to his friends and those who felt it necessary without the permission of the source and at the same time lying to the public that no one received anything from him.
d.) Game redactions (GameStar, PC_Games, PC_Action, PC_Players) and former members of the company PB is allowed to have the materials under the terms of the NDA and say about it. But they are not entitled to transfer them without the consent of the owners of copyright on materials. If this person has something someone gives and about it know others people, then you are to blame, but don't then wonder why people something ask. There is a moral side to the issue, you either do it as quietly as possible, so quietly that no one has ever learned anything about it, or you do not pass anything to anyone.
Moreover, I even know which of the former employees uploaded the sequel to DropBox, as a result of which this link was intercepted and led to distribution. I don't want to call name this former worker, but it's not the on who you can think of it, he rarely visits this forum..
e.) If people really strongly were afraid of punishment for copyright infringement, they at all wouldn't begin to whom that that to transfer and especially to speak about it publicly. When the information pops up in the public domain people think that they will not be punished for the fact that they have this material and for the fact that they can create great negative consequences their actions.

[Bild: eFDLI7alPgs.jpg]

[Thorus14]

First, I did not wanted to comment any of that Gothic Sequel Stuff going around here for some time now..

But really..

You polish/russian/whatever Developers are just the Worst...I for now won't touch ANY mods made from polish/russian/whatever Modders.
With such a sad attitude, you won't have any real fanbase here.

Also, why do you keep coming back to that Forum? Just upload/develop/use whatever stuff you want and upload/promote it somewhere else. It's just completely ridiculous now to constantly come back and insult people or accuse them anything.

Over and out...

[Gothaholic]

"Again sent that wrote me Phantom95"

Phantom95 was banned here for good reasons (disregard of the forum rules). he had his chance, he did not use it. so plz. stop playing the messenger for Phantom95, we are not interested in this sort of "indirect discussion".

[Voron256]

gameplay of the underground city of orcs and Troll throwing stones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcAeoPu9wH0&feature=youtu.be
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yquA...ature=youtu.be

[Voron256]

First, I did not wanted to comment any of that Gothic Sequel Stuff going around here for some time now..

But really..

You polish/russian/whatever Developers are just the Worst...I for now won't touch ANY mods made from polish/russian/whatever Modders.
With such a sad attitude, you won't have any real fanbase here.

Also, why do you keep coming back to that Forum? Just upload/develop/use whatever stuff you want and upload/promote it somewhere else. It's just completely ridiculous now to constantly come back and insult people or accuse them anything.

Over and out...

You may say that phantom95 what is here does not respect and insults someone, but you are not entitled to say that he was wrong. He's right about everything he writes.
You have no right to use the idea from the documentation in your mod. Documentation is an object containing intellectual property that cannot be used without the permission of the copyright holders (!) Use ideas from the documentation in the projects in open access equivalent to the citation of ideas from the documentation in the public domain as it was in the video from ARHNjohnny. It's forbidden. It's illegal.
Just throw your documentation in the oven and burn it before it's too late. Stefan Nyul nobody not allowed to use ideas this documentation in their mods.


If it is documentation in which the idea and a plot is written, then it is forbidden to use a priori. Since any text ideas are intellectual property and are also subject to a legal prohibition on disclosure. Meshes and the like is also intellectual property, as well as the text and is subject to the same law on the right of confidentiality of information. AS WELL AS THE TEXT. It is not physical property, and graphic and so intelligent(I just explained)

[BugLuke]

warum machen sich eigentlich immernoch leute die mühe einer diskussion?

[Schatten]

warum machen sich eigentlich immernoch leute die mühe einer diskussion?

Weil sie darauf beharren, dass sie im Recht sind.

Die Diskussion wurde sowieso zerstört, als einige User meinten, die müssten beleidigend und ausfallend werden. Da kann man leider keine anständige Diskussion mehr erwarten. Hätte mir gewünscht, dass man das Ganze friedlich und gesittet lösen kann.

Verstehe nun auch nicht, warum Phantom nun einen Freund herschickt oder einen weiteren Zweitaccount erstellt, um erneut eine Diskussion zu starten.

[Voron256]

all we need to understand is that if the international community were United and could think rationally, such situations would never even have happened. nor any leaks, nor any disputes and so on, all of this the problem is, that people give only the whom they this want give, not those whom this need.
sometimes it's easier to give so as not to create problems. Than not to give and create a big conflict. but some people don't understand that...