[zsicustos]

Hi again,
I just finished the game and here a couple more observations:

• Chaper 6 feels underwhelming. It used to be that when you finally get there you are a god, and you can just hack your way through everything with ease and finally all your work payed off. Now it feels like just another chapter 4/5 zone. Even after drinking 2 dragon potions you are slowly hacking yourself through the game.
• There is not enough money in the game. Even in later chapters you don't swim in it. I got by by cheating a lot but without that it would have been horrible. Can you add a "Haggle" skill that is let's say chapter bound and increases the percentage the goods are traded at?
• The final paladin runes which if I recall were removed from the expansion are back but they cost a lot of mana. I had 200 mana and they were mostly useless. The great healing was nice, but the offensive paladin rune did 600 damage for 80 mana. Which means that you did some damage for all of your manapool. And it didn't even kill an ork warrior if I recall. Since they only appear in the final chapter they should be considerably more fun.
• Perma potions used to be downgraded in NOTR to +3 from +5 because you got the tablets, now that the tablets are gone and monsters are much stronger the +3 has almost no effect.
• I really like the new max health potions and rings, they give you 25 life, so drinking a couple actually give you some extra health. The same with one ring that gave +40 life, which was useful at one point where I could just barely not kill a monster. After the ring I just barely could
• Regeneration is ok. By the time you get he health regen it is so slow that it might not be there. The mana regen was useful for a paladin, Light healing was cheap enough that by the time I needed another healing after fighting I was at full mana.
• The only good rings/belts/amulets are only enchantable so they are only available to the mage. I finished with paladin with +3 strength rings, I couldn't find any.
• For a while "Betty", a dexterity based 1h weapon is by far the best even compared to the blessed ore weapon.
• Only weapons and armor created by you are any good.
• Most of the new armors can be upgraded a lot, eg. hunters armor goes up 7 levels, venguardian by 8 etc. but: since the damage of everything is so large the royal venguardian armor is the only armor worth anything. Literally everything else is garbage. I think I tried everything else: Black troll, Mercenary, Heavy paladin, Hunters. And getting the blueprints for some was only possible at the very end. Maybe add something interesting to the special ones.
• Training has several problems, the maximum trainable strength/dex is 160 but that takes into account your current value and not what you payed to train so far. So drinking potions early on means you cannot train later.
• Training 1H to lets say 60 then switching to 2h treats the price of learning 2h as if you need to increase 1h as well, which is counter to the lore. Switching should be cheaper because you already have the other skill high.
• There is no way to create bolts, and they are 15g a piece. Maybe with bosper but if you want to go with harad you will pay heavily.
• I could not find the recipe for the grave moss potion.
• Since even the heavy paladin armor is rubbish I constantly had to change back to it when talking to paladins/militia because I had to wear paladin armor to talk to them.
• The pathing for one of the dragon hunters at the swamp dragon, lead him into a large tree that I hing was added later. Which had him struck.

Some more for the feedback pile

[Gwyn-Deith]

Hi again,
I just finished the game and here a couple more observations:

• Chaper 6 feels underwhelming. It used to be that when you finally get there you are a god, and you can just hack your way through everything with ease and finally all your work payed off. Now it feels like just another chapter 4/5 zone. Even after drinking 2 dragon potions you are slowly hacking yourself through the game.
• There is not enough money in the game. Even in later chapters you don't swim in it. I got by by cheating a lot but without that it would have been horrible. Can you add a "Haggle" skill that is let's say chapter bound and increases the percentage the goods are traded at?
• The final paladin runes which if I recall were removed from the expansion are back but they cost a lot of mana. I had 200 mana and they were mostly useless. The great healing was nice, but the offensive paladin rune did 600 damage for 80 mana. Which means that you did some damage for all of your manapool. And it didn't even kill an ork warrior if I recall. Since they only appear in the final chapter they should be considerably more fun.
• Perma potions used to be downgraded in NOTR to +3 from +5 because you got the tablets, now that the tablets are gone and monsters are much stronger the +3 has almost no effect.
• I really like the new max health potions and rings, they give you 25 life, so drinking a couple actually give you some extra health. The same with one ring that gave +40 life, which was useful at one point where I could just barely not kill a monster. After the ring I just barely could
• Regeneration is ok. By the time you get he health regen it is so slow that it might not be there. The mana regen was useful for a paladin, Light healing was cheap enough that by the time I needed another healing after fighting I was at full mana.
• The only good rings/belts/amulets are only enchantable so they are only available to the mage. I finished with paladin with +3 strength rings, I couldn't find any.
• For a while "Betty", a dexterity based 1h weapon is by far the best even compared to the blessed ore weapon.
• Only weapons and armor created by you are any good.
• Most of the new armors can be upgraded a lot, eg. hunters armor goes up 7 levels, venguardian by 8 etc. but: since the damage of everything is so large the royal venguardian armor is the only armor worth anything. Literally everything else is garbage. I think I tried everything else: Black troll, Mercenary, Heavy paladin, Hunters. And getting the blueprints for some was only possible at the very end. Maybe add something interesting to the special ones.
• Training has several problems, the maximum trainable strength/dex is 160 but that takes into account your current value and not what you payed to train so far. So drinking potions early on means you cannot train later.
• Training 1H to lets say 60 then switching to 2h treats the price of learning 2h as if you need to increase 1h as well, which is counter to the lore. Switching should be cheaper because you already have the other skill high.
• There is no way to create bolts, and they are 15g a piece. Maybe with bosper but if you want to go with harad you will pay heavily.
• I could not find the recipe for the grave moss potion.
• Since even the heavy paladin armor is rubbish I constantly had to change back to it when talking to paladins/militia because I had to wear paladin armor to talk to them.
• The pathing for one of the dragon hunters at the swamp dragon, lead him into a large tree that I hing was added later. Which had him struck.

Some more for the feedback pile

Thanks for feedback!, we will consider your requests for re-balancing but i should say this mod is intended to up the difficulty in those respects so it will most likely not be changed e.g. potions, chapter 6, min dmg being 25. The crafted armors prob need some re-balancing but since they need more time investment it makes sense that they would be the better armors. Money was not a problem at all for me so i'm not sure what you are doing? I do like the idea of a haggle skill though we may consider that. Their are +5 rings just need to find them btw probably the traders have them e.g. Huno in Jhakendar. for +5 str ring. As far as the huge list you posted we will look over them of course as well.

TL;DR thanks for the list(s)! some changes where intended to up the difficulty and lessen the god mode esp. in later chapters so i cannot promise those will be changed. The other mentioned issues will be addressed appropriately ofc.

[zsicustos]

My ultimate point is along the lines:
Gothic used to have this excelent core structure that in the beginning you were weak but with enough work you got decent then at the end godlike, and this progression was strongly tied to the story. You had this big payoff for your hard work.
Right now you start exceptionally weak then get decent by the end. You suffer a lot for almost no payback. The progression is not really tied to the progression. Hurry to Ch3 and you can make the best armor+weapon in the game.

Maybe some armors/armor upgrades could change the minimum damage and link the upgrades to the chapters or upgrades with rare resources, eg -5 per black ore. Then you still have a bloody hard early-mid game but at the mid-end game you still feel prepperly strong.

Regarding money, at a minimum:

• for alchemny ingredients and recipies you need about 10000g
• buyable permanent potions about the same ammount
• weapons and armor that you make about 15000g
• scrolls, quests, amunition, books, misc: about 20000g

so all around 55000g, and with animal trophies bringing you around 2g per piece, and high end weapons max 110g, that's a lot of claws, teeth and el bastardos
Ok I guess you can do with an absolute minimum of at least 20000g which still takes most of the game.

I am looking forward to a mage run in the next version

[contra]

I really like the modification, and most of the changes. The atmosphere is great, and pushed by the hunger etc system. The only drawback is for me, the minimal damage of 25. I do understand, that you like your designed hardness, but something like difficulty to be choosen (maybe 15 min damage as the easier version and 25 as the standard version) can be compromise?


For the non guild armour, which might be barrier to speak with eg paladins, maybe beginning from some point (nh killed all dragon), they except him wearing different armours.

[Gwyn-Deith]

I really like the modification, and most of the changes. The atmosphere is great, and pushed by the hunger etc system. The only drawback is for me, the minimal damage of 25. I do understand, that you like your designed hardness, but something like difficulty to be choosen (maybe 15 min damage as the easier version and 25 as the standard version) can be compromise?


For the non guild armour, which might be barrier to speak with eg paladins, maybe beginning from some point (nh killed all dragon), they except him wearing different armours.

- Perhaps, the issue is more with having to then maintain more versions of the mod which can be quite a hassle, their is already 2 versions as it is and we (as of yet at least or not to my knowledge) cannot change values like that dynamically in-game i.e. via a selection on the menu or something. We may simply reduce this to 15 or some other solution if it presents itself of course .

EDIT: since min damage goes both ways, as the player has an easier time taking on enemies since at the very least the NH does 25 dmg but also takes this much maybe reducing it to 15 won't make to much difference.

- thats a pretty good idea! i had something similar in mind, we will need to come up with some solution that comprises the RP aspect and player convenience so def going to be looking into that.

My ultimate point is along the lines:
Gothic used to have this excelent core structure that in the beginning you were weak but with enough work you got decent then at the end godlike, and this progression was strongly tied to the story. You had this big payoff for your hard work.
Right now you start exceptionally weak then get decent by the end. You suffer a lot for almost no payback. The progression is not really tied to the progression. Hurry to Ch3 and you can make the best armor+weapon in the game.
....
I am looking forward to a mage run in the next version

Imo this is very subjective now, me personally i still find the end game very rewarding (although i have bias since i am one of the dev's on this mod :P) I'm curious as to what others say when they have played through the current version. There is a lot ideas planned on a list for future updates so you issues may be addressed naturally ofc.

yes best to wait for mage runs in a later update, I think we may release a minor update for the script file to accommodate mages, i know this path needs fixing esp with magic exhaustion.

[zsicustos]

Maybe a solution to the two versions can be:
The no survival elements version is the "classic" mode with enhancements, and is considered a normal difficulty.
The survival elements version is the hardcore difficulty for a real challenge.
I suspect many people would love your version with a classic and a hardcore mode

Btw do you need help with coding? I messed around with gothic 2 scripts at one point. I multiplied all the monsters by 10 and other changes . Let me tell you you learn a new way to play Gothic facing 30 rats with a rusty sword.

[Gwyn-Deith]

Maybe a solution to the two versions can be:
The no survival elements version is the "classic" mode with enhancements, and is considered a normal difficulty.
The survival elements version is the hardcore difficulty for a real challenge.
I suspect many people would love your version with a classic and a hardcore mode

Btw do you need help with coding? I messed around with gothic 2 scripts at one point. I multiplied all the monsters by 10 and other changes . Let me tell you you learn a new way to play Gothic facing 30 rats with a rusty sword.

No not really atm, people testing and giving feedback is pretty helpful though, Thanks for offering anyway!
!

[amazing22222]

Hi!
I have some ideas for the mod:

1. IMO it is a bit ridiculous that the last sword that Bennet teaches to make when you are a dragon hunter is stronger than the 'legendary' sword from monastery's almanac. The same applies to the paladin's consecrated sword. Some rebalance is needed. Sure, the Smith is skilled but come on, there is no way he is THAT good.
2. The rune which teleports to onar's farm could teleport instead to that small chapel in the graveyard (at the onar's farm of course). Maybe a staircase to a room with a pentagram could be added there.
3. This idea may seem a bit ridiculous, but would it not be cool if the raven's room in the old camp had instructions on how to make his armour? (the one he used during the battle in jharkendar?)
4. Some cool elements from the Returning 2.0 mod could be added that increase the 'immersion' e.g. scarecrows at farms, privies etc.
5. Double sword fighting could also be implemented.
6. The armor that you can craft using the instructions from Bosper is rather useless. Maybe it should be possible to upgrade this armour just like some of the other ones?

Also, are there any plans to add additional quests/guilds/locations etc to the mod? It would be great if it was the case.

[Talek]

Hmmm... Martin, Garvell and Lehmar spawned and disappeared after a crash to desktop with the mod. Any clues how to solve this without restarting? Reloaded earlier saves they just would not spawn again.

EDIT: Oh and Jack instantly reported the bandits being dead in his watchtower so I assume they disappeared too.

EDIT 2: Also had a severe issue playing the game. The memory error would hit. When I tried to install the .exe fix, it would constantly crash - dx11 mod did not work with it.

[Gwyn-Deith]

Hi!
I have some ideas for the mod:

1. IMO it is a bit ridiculous that the last sword that Bennet teaches to make when you are a dragon hunter is stronger than the 'legendary' sword from monastery's almanac. The same applies to the paladin's consecrated sword. Some rebalance is needed. Sure, the Smith is skilled but come on, there is no way he is THAT good.
2. The rune which teleports to onar's farm could teleport instead to that small chapel in the graveyard (at the onar's farm of course). Maybe a staircase to a room with a pentagram could be added there.
3. This idea may seem a bit ridiculous, but would it not be cool if the raven's room in the old camp had instructions on how to make his armour? (the one he used during the battle in jharkendar?)
4. Some cool elements from the Returning 2.0 mod could be added that increase the 'immersion' e.g. scarecrows at farms, privies etc.
5. Double sword fighting could also be implemented.
6. The armor that you can craft using the instructions from Bosper is rather useless. Maybe it should be possible to upgrade this armour just like some of the other ones?

Also, are there any plans to add additional quests/guilds/locations etc to the mod? It would be great if it was the case.

Thanks most of your suggestions have already been noted, as far as quests/guilds go we don't plan to add any new guilds and only a small amount of quests for the thiefs guild are something we are looking over (if you've played Elex perhaps something how the thief guild contracts work in that game). Locations we are discussing the possiblity of incorporating the wasteland mod for VoM but other than that no. For the most part L'hiver is not intended to add new story lines or guilds etc. into that game.

Hmmm... Martin, Garvell and Lehmar spawned and disappeared after a crash to desktop with the mod. Any clues how to solve this without restarting? Reloaded earlier saves they just would not spawn again.

EDIT: Oh and Jack instantly reported the bandits being dead in his watchtower so I assume they disappeared too.

EDIT 2: Also had a severe issue playing the game. The memory error would hit. When I tried to install the .exe fix, it would constantly crash - dx11 mod did not work with it.

Wow thats very strange, have you installed the crash fix and system pack? I had 0 errors and crashes over 100hours of testing the current version. Do try starting a new game in a diff save slot and just use marvin codes to check those NPCs and such.

[Talek]

I did, but DX mod would crash instantly with the crash fix. It said it did not recognise the exe, and then would fail to load the game. And ye, initially I thought maybe the NPCs would be repopulated but now I realised they died somehow and the save is kind of broken. Which is annoying.

[Zasterf]

Hello and thank you for this beautiful mod!

I am in Ch5 as a Dragon Hunter and I learned how to forge the 1h weapon from Bennet. The problem is that to assemble it I need 3 rubies and I haven't found a single one yet. Any idea were I cn get some rubies.

Thank you again

[Gwyn-Deith]

Hello and thank you for this beautiful mod!

I am in Ch5 as a Dragon Hunter and I learned how to forge the 1h weapon from Bennet. The problem is that to assemble it I need 3 rubies and I haven't found a single one yet. Any idea were I cn get some rubies.

Thank you again

Some traders sell them in Khroinis, also mining can yeild rubies. More specifically

Spoiler:(zum lesen bitte Text markieren)

- Selivan, Lutero should sell them but i'm sure some traders do if they dont
- From mining (at the highest level otherwise you wont get rubies) and even then there
is only a chance to mine it so you can save/reload if you really need to.

[amazing22222]

don't plan to add any new guilds

During the events in jharkendar you can acquire a water mage outift while being a fire mage (lol) so IMO it would make sense to at least add a possibility of becoming a water mage just like it was done in the first gothic (simply by talking to Saturas about becoming one). It would not change the plot in any meaningful way.

we are discussing the possiblity of incorporating the wasteland mod for VoM

Incorporating that mod would create a giant plothole - what would happen then to the orc's barricade?

The armor that you can craft using the instructions from Bosper is rather useless. Maybe it should be possible to upgrade this armour just like some of the other ones?

Just to extend my previous post - you could make it possible to upgrade to look like one of the hunter amours from the Dark Saga mod. It would be awesome.

[Gwyn-Deith]

During the events in jharkendar you can acquire a water mage outift while being a fire mage (lol) so IMO it would make sense to at least add a possibility of becoming a water mage just like it was done in the first gothic (simply by talking to Saturas about becoming one). It would not change the plot in any meaningful way.



Incorporating that mod would create a giant plothole - what would happen then to the orc's barricade?


Just to extend my previous post - you could make it possible to upgrade to look like one of the hunter amours from the Dark Saga mod. It would be awesome.

- Perhaps, can't say much more on that. I think it's wont make much difference being a water mage beyond just getting the robes since fire mages already have access to their spells
- Actually I agree on this, imo there are already enough locations old and new and the maps are all big enough so no need for it and I think the mystery of the orc wall is better.
- Yes there will need to be changes to this armor, perhaps upgrades as you mentioned.

[Zasterf]

Some traders sell them in Khroinis, also mining can yeild rubies. More specifically

Spoiler:(zum lesen bitte Text markieren)

- Selivan, Lutero should sell them but i'm sure some traders do if they dont
- From mining (at the highest level otherwise you wont get rubies) and even then there
is only a chance to mine it so you can save/reload if you really need to.

Gwyn-Deith, thank you very very much!!!!!

One last question: I have 100% one handed skill but the animation never changed since the beginning of the game. Usually after reaching a certain percentage the sword was held differently, from point up and slow reaction (low %) to point down and fast reaction (high %). Is that a bug? Is there a way to fix it?

Thank you again

[amazing22222]

LP cost for stats (Strength, Dex, Mana) scale on the amount of LPs spent for that stat and not on the stat itself

What's the rationale behind this decision? IMO the LP system introduced in the basic lhiver is way more simple and fair (you always pay 10 lp for each 5 points of strength/dexterity etc regardless of the situation).

Teleport to pass is in the castle, which was supposedly done to increase difficulty(now you need 500 gold), but instantly begs the question why haven't the messenger use it to teleport out. It breaks the immersion.

IMO the rune should be removed altogether. It makes the game way too easy and l'hvier is supposed to make the game more challenging and rewarding.

[zsicustos]

IMO the rune should be removed altogether. It makes the game way too easy and l'hvier is supposed to make the game more challenging and rewarding.

Difficulty should not be at the cost of gameplay. You get runes late because you get bored of walking. Removing runes will not make the game harder, just more boring.

[Gwyn-Deith]

What's the rationale behind this decision? IMO the LP system introduced in the basic lhiver is way more simple and fair (you always pay 10 lp for each 5 points of strength/dexterity etc regardless of the situation).

IMO the rune should be removed altogether. It makes the game way too easy and l'hvier is supposed to make the game more challenging and rewarding.

- the vanilla system as you described was in classic notr and it just encouraged saving all bonuses e.g. tables, perm potions etc. till very later game which then consuming them would have the most LP saving benefit. Technically the new system is simpler as now there are both separated, you can take as many bonuses as you want and it won't affect LP cost but LP cost is also more accurately calculated at trainers to stop easy LP saving.

Gwyn-Deith, thank you very very much!!!!!

One last question: I have 100% one handed skill but the animation never changed since the beginning of the game. Usually after reaching a certain percentage the sword was held differently, from point up and slow reaction (low %) to point down and fast reaction (high %). Is that a bug? Is there a way to fix it?

Thank you again

- are you playing with the 1.1.1a survival scripts posted before? I believe the shield + 1h is bugged atm in that version.

Difficulty should not be at the cost of gameplay. You get runes late because you get bored of walking. Removing runes will not make the game harder, just more boring.

- Yes we may change the location of this to a accessible location in chapter 2 but require some searching from the player, I have a place in mind.

[amazing22222]

- the vanilla system as you described was in classic notr and it just encouraged saving all bonuses e.g. tables, perm potions etc. till very later game which then consuming them would have the most LP saving benefit. Technically the new system is simpler as now there are both separated, you can take as many bonuses as you want and it won't affect LP cost but LP cost is also more accurately calculated at trainers to stop easy LP saving.

Actually that's not what I meant. What I meant was that in the basic 'russian' lhiver you always pay 10 lp for every 5 of strength etc and it never scales regardless of have much lp you have already invested or your current level. I though that you had actually changed that system back to the way it was in the basic g2notr. Perhaps I misunderstood you. sorry!

Yes we may change the location of this to a accessible location in chapter 2 but require some searching from the player, I have a place in mind.

Maybe the raven's room would be a perfect location for that rune.