Ergebnis 1 bis 6 von 6

Translation needed badly!

  1. #1 Zitieren
    Adventurer
    Registriert seit
    Sep 2008
    Beiträge
    87
    Hello. I really don't know where else I can ask lol so I hope nobody will mind me writing here. I'm working on a bachelor's thesis right now and I have stumbled upon a problem that requires me to check one german source. Unfortunately it is an old german book in two versions, one from 1590 and the other from 1630, both of which are written in stylized font that makes it absolutely impossible to me to even guess what's written. Oh and I can't speak german anyway lol.

    In my thesis one of the subjects is Saint Bruno of Querfurt, who went to Prussia in order to turn pagans into christians. He was beheaded there and all his companions were killed too. Apparently the life and death of saint Bruno was briefly described in one of the works written by Cyriacus Spangenberg, in Quernfurtische Chronika to be exact.

    One of the most interesting parts about this chronicle is that, according to one Polish source from 1898 (Samuela Orgelbranda Encyklopedia Powszechna/Universal Encyclopedia of Samuel Orgelbrand), saint Bruno founded a christian church in the Mazovia Province of Poland in the year of 1000.

    The thing is though, apparently the chronicle of Spangenberg doesn't have that information and the encyclopedia of Orgelbrand lies.

    Because of that I really need someone who could check that book and tell me if it's really true that there is no such information.

    Ideally, the best option would be if someone translated the entire text from that book. The story of Bruno takes 5 pages so it's not much to translate.
    BUT I gather it might be too much to ask, so if anyone just reads it and checks if there actually is an information about saint Bruno funding church, then I'd be just as happy.

    The most important thing is to know if there REALLY is an information that saint Bruno funded a church in the Mazovia Province of Poland.

    There is an original 1590 release available on Google as a free e-book https://play.google.com/store/books/...eu_xYQC&rdot=1
    The pages I need translated/read are also 124-129. In the e-book they are on pages 134-139.

    You can download the 1630 book here: http://digitale.bibliothek.uni-halle...:gbv:3:1-55064
    The information about Saint Bruno should be on pages 124-129. The pages are wrongly numbered in the pdf though, so check pages 154-159.

    Can anyone help me with that?
    Caesum ist offline

  2. #2 Zitieren

    nomina nuda tenemus
    Avatar von Don-Esteban
    Registriert seit
    Apr 2001
    Ort
    Dystopia
    Beiträge
    54.086
    Yes, a German role playing game forum is the best place to discuss medieval special issues.
    Nobody here has to do something with your topic.

    I have shift this thread to the "pupil and students forum".
    ________________

    And now my answer:

    I know Bruno of Querfurt and some of his time and I know Spangenberg and I have read the corresponding chapter from his book.

    Spangenberg wrotes:
    In 1000 Emperor Otto III and Bruno of Querfurt have travelled to Poland (Gniezno) (and Otto III possibly bestow the title king upon the polish duke Boleslaw - the so called "Congress of Gniezno" and the Polish church organisation with bishoprics and archbishopric Gniezno was founded). Spangenberg wrotes further, Otto says, Boleslaw should support Bruno in his conversion of the Prussian tribes. Otto have traveled back to Magdeburg and Bruno to Prussia with some companions. In Prussia he was preaching and baptizing some people. Later he travels back in the Holy Roman Empire and further to Rome to report the pope about his effords in Prussia.

    Spangenberg writes nothing about founding a church (as a building) or the church (as the organisation) in Prussia by Bruno.

    Spangenberg:
    "Als nu Herr Brun vom Keiser seinen Abschied / und
    von Erzbischof Giselern den Segen genommen / Ist er
    hierauff im Früling des 1000. Jharß / mit seinen Geferten
    in Preussen / und bey Drey Jharen hin und wider / das
    Euangelium / und den Glauben an CHRIstum gepredigt.
    Und ob wol solchs nicht mit geringer gefahr geschehen / So
    ists doch nicht aller Dinge ohne frucht abgangen / Man hat
    Ihnen wol feindlich nach Leib und Leben gestanden / Es ist
    aber damals ihre zeit zu leiden noch nicht verhanden gewe-
    sen.
    Als nu Herr Brun also das Preussenlandt / die lenge
    und quere durchzogen / hat Er seinen weg wider nach Rom
    genommen / und dem Bapst bericht gethan / was Er darin-
    nen ausgerichtet / und wie fern ers gebracht / mit vermel-
    dung / Was seines erachtens nu förder hierinnen zu thun un
    fürzunemen / Sonderlich das noth sein wolle / seinen beiden
    Mittgeferten / die er in Preussen gelassen / noch mehr gehülf-
    fen zu schicken. Also hat ihme der Bapst groß Lob gegeben /
    und den anderen / Bonifacium genandt / auch noch etliche an-
    dere mehr zugeordnet / Denen er Fürschrifften mit gegeben /
    welche Herr Brun mit sich genommen."

    Translation:
    "As Bruno take leave of the Emperor / and
    was blessed from Archbishop Giselern* / He
    traveled in spring 1000 with his companions
    to Prussia / He traveled three years cross-country
    and preaching the gospel and the belief to Christus.
    (and further, shortened:) This was not without danger, but it was not just yet the time for martyrdom.
    He traveled back to Rome and report the pope. The pope was pleased, praised Bruno and give Bruno some new companions to take with them.


    That Spangenberg nothing wrote about founding a church by Bruno is correct. Others would makes no sense, because the baptism of the pagan Prussians was in progress by the Teutonic Order 225 years later. And they have done this more in a bad manner with fire and sword and with exterminate whole areas so there was nothing left and they called German settlers to Prussia to develop the country. In my opinion Bruno of Querfurt was more a kind of religious dreamer.



    *maybe Gaudentius?
    Don-Esteban ist offline

  3. #3 Zitieren
    Adventurer
    Registriert seit
    Sep 2008
    Beiträge
    87
    Oh my God, I thought it was OT as in Off Topic, can't believe I was so stupid. Only shows my skills when it comes to German language. Anyway, thank you for moving this into the right place.

    About Bruno, to be honest that's exactly what I thought. There was literally only one Polish source which suggested that Spangenberg wrote something about Bruno funding a church in Poland. Yet for some reason most Polish historians and archaeologists thought it's true and never given a second thought until recently.

    From what I could understand Bruno visited Prussia twice according to Spangenberg..? The first time he went back to Pope as you said, while the second time he was killed by pagans. Is that correct?

    Also, does the text say anything about Bruno having a diocese? According to Thietmar Chronicle he did become a bishop, but probably only to be a missionary (archbishop of "gentium") and he didn't receive any diocese..?

    Giselern might also be Gisilher, the archbishop of Magdeburg.
    Caesum ist offline Geändert von Caesum (05.08.2017 um 21:14 Uhr)

  4. #4 Zitieren

    nomina nuda tenemus
    Avatar von Don-Esteban
    Registriert seit
    Apr 2001
    Ort
    Dystopia
    Beiträge
    54.086
    Zitat Zitat von Caesum Beitrag anzeigen
    Oh my God, I thought it was OT as in Off Topic, can't believe I was so stupid. Only shows my skills when it comes to German language. Anyway, thank you for moving this into the right place.

    About Bruno, to be honest that's exactly what I thought. There was literally only one Polish source which suggested that Spangenberg wrote something about Bruno funding a church in Poland. Yet for some reason most Polish historians and archaeologists thought it's true and never given a second thought until recently.

    From what I could understand Bruno visited Prussia twice according to Spangenberg..? The first time he went back to Pope as you said, while the second time he was killed by pagans. Is that correct?

    Also, does the text say anything about Bruno having a diocese? According to Thietmar Chronicle he did become a bishop, but probably only to be a missionary (archbishop of "gentium") and he didn't receive any diocese..?
    After his visit in Rome he travels to Querfurt, to visit his brothers. Than he travels to Magdeburg to the funeral of archbishop Gisilher (1004), then to Merseburg, where King Heinrich II (successor of Otto III) held an Imperial Diet. Bruno speaks about the new Prussian church organisation. He get the official order for baptism the slavs in Merseburg (but the Prussians where no slavs - curious, but I think, the German people had no idea about the origins of this tribes far away ...). I think, this means, he becomes a missionary bishop. Maybe he has hoped to become the bishop of a new bishopric Prussia after he (and his companions) baptism the Prussians.

    After this Spangenberg wrote the story about an obstinate donkey, which distract Bruno to travel to Prussia again. But Bruno travel anyway the next day. (Typical story of a Saint ...)

    Not to read at Spangenberg:
    There was no support for the baptism by Heinrich II, because he fight against the Polish King. Bruno travels to Hungary and wants support from King Stephan I, but he refuse. So Bruno travels to Kiev to grand prince Wladimir I. Here he baptism some Pechenegs and mediate a peace treaty between the Pechenegs and the Kievan Rus'*. After this he travels again to Poland and a second time to Prussia.

    Now Spangenberg reports:
    Here he was slain with 14 companions by the Lithuanians on the border between Lithania and the Rus' in February or March 1009.
    Seems, he was traveled far east through the baltic primeval forest ...


    Giselern might also be Gisilher, the archbishop of Magdeburg.
    Ah, good point. Makes absolutly sense!





    The original forum, you posted, is the off-topic forum for a text RPG. Organizing quests and stories to post and so on ...



    * The greast schism between Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church happens not until 1054, so Bruno was welcome in Kiev.
    Don-Esteban ist offline

  5. #5 Zitieren
    Adventurer
    Registriert seit
    Sep 2008
    Beiträge
    87
    Thank you! Everything makes perfect sense now. Just one more thing: you say he travels to Prussia anyway, but does the text say how? Does it give any information about the journey? Or does the text jump directly to his death?
    Caesum ist offline

  6. #6 Zitieren

    nomina nuda tenemus
    Avatar von Don-Esteban
    Registriert seit
    Apr 2001
    Ort
    Dystopia
    Beiträge
    54.086
    Spangenberg wrotes:

    Bruno travels after some days back to Prussia to his "sheeps" and his fellow Christians. But there where only few proselytes and many with a heart of flint.
    and so on ...

    In modern German:

    "Beschloss also endlich fort zu reisen, egal was ihm geschehen würde. Und zog nach etlichen Tagen in Gottes Namen wiederum zu seinen Schäflein und obigen Brüdern in Preußen, predigte, lehrte, und taufte wie zuvor. Bekehrte überall etliche. Dazu war König Boleslaw von Polen ihnen bei der Beförderung behilflich und hatte auch für notdürftige Unterkunft gesorgt. Es gab aber auch großen Widerstand und keinen Schutz. Denn es gab nur wenig bekehrte Christen. Der verstockten Herzen aber waren viele, die ihm und seinen Zuhörern täglich drohten, sie zu töten oder zu erschlagen. Und zuletzt namen sie ihn gefangen, gingen grausam mit ihm um, peinigten und marterten ihn, Hände und Füße, Arme und Beine nacheinander. Und zuletzt hieben sie ihm auch den Kopf ab und töteten ihn jämmerlich. Danach ist es seinen Brüdern auch nicht besser gegangen. Und dies geschah 1008 oder 1009. Laut der Quedlinburgischen Chronic den 9. März an der Grenze zwischen Russen und Litauern. Es sollen auch noch andere 18 mit ihm gemartert worden sein."

    You can translate via Google


    ___________________


    Annals of Quedlinburg, year MIX (page 64):
    http://digital.slub-dresden.de/werka...dlf/2891/64/0/

    "Sanctus Bruno qui gognominatur Bonifacius archepiscopus et manachus XI. Suae conuersiones anno in confinio Russiae et Lituae a paganis capite plexus cum suis XVIII, VII. ld. martii petiit coelas."

    Means: Saint Bruno, which was also named Bonifacius, archbishop ... his conversions at the year at the border between Russia and Lithuania the pagans catch him with his 18 ...
    Don-Esteban ist offline

Berechtigungen

  • Neue Themen erstellen: Nein
  • Themen beantworten: Nein
  • Anhänge hochladen: Nein
  • Beiträge bearbeiten: Nein
  •