[Darksword]

Oh gosh! I hope someone can help. Early in the game I trained 2H to 34%. Since then I have concentrated on STR, and non-stat things like lockpick, alchemy, ancient languages. Now I reached the point where I want to train 2H again, and -oh no! - it is not 34% but has gone down to 31%.

OK, I know people are going to say this is not possible: I myself if I were reading this post, would say it's not possible ... but it happened. I've never had anything like this happen to me in the 7 or so previous times when I did the first two chapters ...

Where am I in the game? I have triggered Ch2, but not gone to Valley of Mines. Instead I have been doing Jharkendar, and have got to the point where I need to go and raise the ghost of Quahodron.

I have a saved game from 10th December where I'm doing the Pirate Camp, and still have the 34% 2H. Since that game, I did all the rest of Jharkendar up to finding Quahodron's grave. Somewhere in there I lost the 3%.

I'm going to have to restart from my 10th December game, but please, does anyone know why this happened? I don't want to repeat the error whatever it was.

I've equipped and unequipped the Giant Machete a few times. Is it possible that one of the times when I unequipped the Giant Machete, which give me a +3% bonus to 2H, I somehow lost 3% from the permanent total? I've used it in other play-throughs and never had this happen to me.

I have not equipped any weapon with a malus. The weapons I've used during this period of the game have been Typhoon, Giant Machete, Orcish War Sword, Cutlass, Staff Mace.

One of three things I did differently in this play-through that I did not do before, was I used an Orcish War Sword. But it does not show a malus when I look at it in the Inventory. Maybe right when I took it off an Orc Elite it warned me, and I didn't notice???

The second thing I did differently was to buy the Cutlass from Sarah and use it, but that shouldn't make a difference should it?

The third thing I did differently was, during my nightly returns to Khorinis, to go get apples by fighting Sentenza when he was eating an apple. Maybe this caused the penalty???

I feel kind of sick ... I mean, it's not the end of the world to lose two weeks of gameplay, but I'll be afraid all the time of this happening again. I shall really appreciate any help - thank you.

[Arkain]

There could be some shenanigans with transformation spells afoot. If you don't use one of the script patches, the game will apply whatever temporary bonus you have (can even be negative in case of the storm cudgel) and make it permanent, if the equipped weapon isn't the strongest you can equip, as you will end up with the strongest once you end the transformation. Lord Sargon's patch circumvents this by equipping you before you transform.
To elaborate: say you have a rapier for +8% one handed skill equipped, but could equip a rune sword (10 damage more, no bonus), which you'll end up with after the spell ends. If you transform with the rapier, the 8% will be carried over to your character permanently, once you end the transformation.
This does of course imply that you don't have the script patch installed and that you have used such a spell. It should have worked in the opposite direction though, so I wonder...

The differences you mentioned regarding your playthrough shouldn't do anything. If all remains mysterious and unsolved, I'd personally simply adjust your stats via console and press on. It's not worth the trouble of replaying that much of a time period, I think. (He said, despite most likely replaying himself if he were in the same situation)

[Darksword]

Interesting! I did transform into a Lurker to jump out of the place with the Magic Bow. It's possible I had the Giant Machete equipped then. It must have been that - the +3% bonus and my missing 3% is just too much of a coincidence. I must remember to unequip weapons before I transform ...

Oh, and I am using Gothic Gold, I don't think I applied any patches: the Load Game etc screen says version 2.7 English.

I feel too depressed to make a decision now, but probably I will replay instead of doing a console adjustment.

Thank you so much, Arkhain! At least now I can relax and enjoy Christmas Eve with my mind at somewhat at rest.

[Arkain]

Hmm, frankly, I'm not sure if the script patches (either one, really) work at all with the English version. What bothers me, though, is that it should work in the opposite direction. If you transform with the machete and end up with another non-bonus weapon, you should, from my understanding, gain and not lose weapon skill. It does seem most likely though, I agree.

By the way, it's possible to reach 90 dexterity in chapter 2-3 without much hassle and training if you get all the permanent and temporary bonuses. Equip items for up to 30 extra dex and then consume a single permanent bonus (e.g. a berry for +1), if that puts you at 90+, you'll automatically gain and keep acrobatics. That way you can also just jump over the chasm in Jharkendar to get the magic bow, without any problems whatsoever.

[Darksword]

Arkhain, thanks for the DEX tips. If I restart my game, which I may do today, I'll put that on my agenda.

OK, I tried reloading my 10 December game and playing on, but soon found it didn't work well. I print and mark maps of stone tablets, herbs, treasure Xs, and I'm not sure what I had and had not found at that stage - e.g. I can see how many Dragon Roots and Goblin Berries I have in inventory, but have no idea where I picked them up. Plus there are so many little things you do that give experience or help you in another way that aren't in the Quest Log: the only example I can think of this morning is Maria's gold plate. Not to mention what chests I still need to revisit now that I got lockpick ... It goes on and on.

So, I did a thing I never thought I would do - I edited my two-handed stat back to 34. I am playing on but am feeling kind of gloomy. Maybe I must just accept that I have to restart: which will be the 4th restart of this particular visit to Gothic II NotR. Not sure I can bear it.

[Arkain]

I can relate to your feeling bad about it. Would bother me too, but I still think it's not worth a restart. What you could also do is just accept that this has happened and live with ~6 points less to improve into your character. I mean, ultimately it boils down to what, 1-2 strength/dexterity?

Sorry I can't really help you, though.

[Darksword]

Thank you, Arkhain, I know what you mean - ultimately the loss of 6 LP is not that bad, but to get through Ch2 the way I have played before, and to follow the very careful training schema I have hammered out over the last year or so, the loss of 6 LP at this stage is not a small matter.

Anyway, I spent quite some time thinking the whole thing over, and I woke up this morning to find my brain had decided to restart. Not very logical, I know, but I'm a perfectionist - or an obsessive-compulsive, many would say!

It's not all bad: I find the early game really immersive and enjoyable, and am having fun and feeling good.

I can never thank you enough for your kindness, calming words, and intelligent advice the last couple of days: though I have chosen the most radical option, you showed me what the issues and options were.

[Haskeer89]

Interesting discussion here. Personally, I have no problem at all in using cheats/editor if I encounter a bug.
I even use the waypoints teleport cheats if I already killed all the monsters on the way just for the sake of saving time (of course after a respawn I would not do this)!

[Darksword]

Yes, I can see your point of view. Perhaps I could have lived with having edited that stat if it was an absolute copper-bottomed certainty that the loss of 3% resulted from a bug.

Trouble was, there was no definitive evidence that I'd encountered a bug, since:
1. I lost rather than gained the weapon's bonus.
2. I don't know for sure that I had the Giant Machete equipped when I transformed into a Lurker - I did have it in Inventory, but I also had the Staff Mace, and since the enemies in that Magic Bow place are Stone Sentinels, I might very well have had the Staff Mace equipped, as it's a blunt weapon, and the weapon I often use against the Sentinels.

So, though on a rational level I really don't think I did anything to cause the loss, not to mention the coincidence of the 3% figure, at gut level I don't trust myself enough to take it to the bank. I am no longer young (to say the least!), my memory is not always reliable, ... in short, there is a niggle inside me that says, "Maybe you just had a Senior Moment somehow and brought the loss on yourself." I guess that's why I felt guilty about editing the stat.

[Darksword]

Just to let anyone who's interested know that after replaying the game to roughly the same point I tried to replicate the loss of 3% to my two-handed skill: I equipped the Giant Machete and transformed to a lurker.

But nothing happened. So it seems most likely that I did something stupid and inflicted that penalty on myself somehow. I'm really glad now that I restarted the game instead of just "adjusting" my stats ...

Thanks to all who helped, with a specially big thanks to Arkhain.

[Lord Sargon]

Hi, i just saw this thread and can explain the 3%-loss..

I must remember to unequip weapons before I transform ...

That's the problem and not the solution, in case your best weapon is a bonus-weapon.
So when your best weapon is the machete, you can reproduce the bug not by equipping it, but by unequipping it before you transform. It's the same principle that Arkain explained, just reversed. If you have no weapon or a non-bonus-weapon before transformation, but the bonus-weapon afterwards, you will still have the same skill-percentage, but this time with the bonus included, which you will lose by unequipping, so it is lost permanently.
Therefore the solution is not unequipping weapons before transformation, but equipping the best weapon you have (which is exactly what the patch does, as Arkain has already mentioned), so you have the same weapon equipped before and after, and no difference can occur

[Darksword]

Thank you, Lord Sargon. I think I understand now, but I'm not sure. Am I right in thinking my problem was that:

1. At the time when I transformed, the best weapon I had available to me must have been the Giant Machete.

2. When I transformed, I had some other weapon equipped, and the Giant Machete NOT equipped: if I had equipped the Giant Machete before transforming, I would not have lost the 3%.

3. Then, after I transformed back to myself again, I must have equipped the Giant Machete either immediately or maybe even later on. And I lost the 3% at that point, when, after ending the transform spell, I equipped the Giant Machete.

4. If I had transformed with the Giant Machete equipped, all would have been well.

5. So, take this scenario:
I have the Giant Machete, but I also have the Cutlass, a better weapon, and I am strong enough to use the Cutlass. I transform with the Cutlass equipped. After I end the transform spell, I equip the Giant Machete. Nothing bad would happen, because the GM was not my best weapon???

I'm sure I'm not getting it right even now. Sorry to be so brainless, I'm rarely at my best on Friday afternoons ...

[Thorwyn]

5. So, take this scenario:
I have the Giant Machete, but I also have the Cutlass, a better weapon, and I am strong enough to use the Cutlass. I transform with the Cutlass equipped. After I end the transform spell, I equip the Giant Machete. Nothing bad would happen, because the GM was not my best weapon???

You could of course do that manually, but it won’t have any unusal effects since the hero won’t do it automatically at the end of the transformation. And all these problems stem from the automatic equipping: When transforming, the game remembers your weapon skill, but not your equipped weapon. When ending the transformation, the best weapon is equipped, and the weapon skill is set to the previous level.
Some examples:
1) 10% one-handed + 5% because of a sword = 15%
After the transformation, the game equips a weapon with more damage but without bonus and sets your skill to the previous 15%. So now you have 15% even without the weapon bonus. Equipping the previous weapon lets you reach 20%.

2) 10% one-handed, no weapon bonus = 10%
After the transformation, the game equips a weapon with more damage and a 5% bonus and sets your skill to 10%. So now you have 10%, but only with the 5% weapon bonus included. So when unequipping the weapon, you only have 5% left.

In short:
Weapon with bonus before the transformation, but weapon without bonus afterward: you get a bonus to your weapon skill.
Weapon without bonus before the transformation, but weapon with bonus afterward: you get a malus to your weapon skill.

[Konig Robar der 2.]

did you switch weapons? some weapons provide a 1h Skill Bonus of 3%.

[Darksword]

did you switch weapons? some weapons provide a 1h Skill Bonus of 3%.

No, I didn't. I only play 2H, at least, as soon as I can get hold of a 2H weapon.

In Jharkendar, unless I'd looted a 1H weapon, I would not have had one in inventory.

My problem is that I don't really know what I did - I had played for about 3 weeks before I realised my 2H skill was less than it should be. Yeah, I know, really stupid, but I was absolutely focussed on STR all that time.

What I think I did was this: I was using the Orcish War Sword. I also had the Giant Machete in my inventory. I transformed with the Orcish War sword equipped (I think), and later on equipped the Giant Machete. Then switched back to Orcish War Sword.

But it looks as though that was not what happened.

I'm really grateful for all the help. Thank you.

[Darksword]

In short:
Weapon with bonus before the transformation, but weapon without bonus afterward: you get a bonus to your weapon skill.
Weapon without bonus before the transformation, but weapon with bonus afterward: you get a malus to your weapon skill.

Great, thank you, now I understand. Gosh, I wish I had a few more brain cells ...

I definitely had 34% 2H skill when I transformed. I'm pretty sure I was fighting with the Orcish War Sword at the time when I transformed. It has 100 damage. I definitely had the Giant Machete in inventory which does 105 damage. So when I ended the transformation, the game equipped the Giant Machete (the most damaging weapon I had at the time) and set my 2H to 34%, and when I unequipped the Giant Machete, my 2H skill went down to 31% because the Giant Machete gives a +3% bonus.

And the rest is history ... It feels sooo good to clear this up. Thank you, Thorwyn, thank you.

As for my recent experiments with transforming which did not affect my 2H skill for either better or worse: I guess this is because I had the Rune Sword, and later the Cutlass available and in my inventory, and both do more damage than the Giant Machete, which I had equipped when I transformed.

Big THANKS also to Arkhain, Lord Sargon and all who helped: this forum is a big part of what makes the Gothic games so enjoyable.