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    Zitat Zitat von Maladiq Beitrag anzeigen
    Calin?

    Anyway, fuck no, I don't want them fucking up the Gothic series even more than it is.

    I honestly believe at this point they should just sell the licence to CD Projekt and get done with it.
    PB make better games than CDPR.

    I am playing The Witcher 3 right now, and as amazing a technical accomplishment as it is, I am not finding it as absorbing and as fun as any Gothic or Risen game. The Witcher 3 environments are obviously leagues ahead of anything that PB have ever done, but are in a way 'empty'. I find myself not enjoying The Witcher 3 environments as much as I really should, because I don't have any business or involvement with it. It is just the place where the heavily story driven action happens. In PB games, there are hand placed treasures and ornately designed little nooks and crannies all over. When I collect items from the Witcher 3, I really don't care about what I am collecting. In PB games, when I find a rare plant, or a powerful sword or something, I get a real buzz from it. In PB games, the environment needed to be 'conquered', and when you finally defeated the pack of wolves, giant insects or whatever, to get to the treasure or open up a route through the map, it came with a real sense of acheivment. In The Witcher 3, you can just speed all around the whole map right from the very start.

    Combat in Risen 2 - 3 was spammy rubbish, but so is the combat in the Witcher 3 after about level 10.

    Obviously PB games cannot compete with the level of sophistication of the character interactions and general story telling in the Witcher 3. Indeed, most TV dramas or films don't tell a story as well as it can be told in the Witcher 3...But Witcher 3 isn't an HBO drama, it is a computer game and a computer game needs to get it's audience involved with it through other more interactive means. What Witcher 3 is, is a tremendously good story driven RPG, set in perhaps the most technically advanced open world environment that has ever been created. But every other more interactive element of the game is quite frankly a bit mediocre.

    CDPR shouldn't make Gothic 5, PB should. The things that PB do well in a game, are very distinct and nobody else can match them in the areas in which they excel. However, when PB attempt to branch out, and do things that other video game developers do, and do things that perhaps the marketing people at Deep Silver reckon will appeal to the broad market, the results often aren't good.

    I personally would be chomping at the bit for a Gothic 5, made in the raw style of Gothic 2, or Gothic 3 had PB had time to finish it (so Gothic 3 with CP 1.75 patch). I suspect that what I am going to get however, is another PB game, containing some of the elements of PBs original style which appeals to me so much, but with lots of new, mediocre, and generally unnecesary unwanted stuff, that some marketing dude has persuaded them to include in the game.

    I still haven't played Risen 3 past the first Sea Monster battle.....whoever thought it was a good idea to include utter garbage like that in the game, should be killed.....unless that person works of his own back to release a patch that cuts these battles out of the game, totally.

    The point in this thread, is to highlight that PB have made games in the past, which only PB could have made and these games count as the best games that I, and many other people, have ever played. I think the community needs to scream and shout about what PB do best, in the hope that they might focus on what they did do and still can do better than anyone else, as opposed to trying to copy game elements that other developers do and which seem to be popular and the key to making a game a critical and commerical success. Although I suspect a game acheives that kind of status as much through big buck$ marketing hype as anything else.
    MatDerKater ist offline Geändert von MatDerKater (10.06.2015 um 14:37 Uhr)

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    CDPR shouldn't make Gothic 5, PB should. The things that PB do well in a game, are very distinct and nobody else can match them in the areas in which they excel.
    Lately, not even PB could match them
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    Lately, not even PB could match them
    Sadly true.
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    Lately, not even PB could match them
    I would say that they have matched their previous work in certain areas, here and there....it's just that they keep on doing lots of stupid stuff that:

    a) doesn't work well
    b) they are just not that good at

    Whilst there was lots of things that annoyed me about it, I was getting a lot of enjoyment from Risen 3, up until the first Sea Monster battle, which is where the game ended for me.
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    Knight Avatar von catalinux
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    [QUOTE=MatDerKater;24413743]
    Zitat Zitat von MatDerKater Beitrag anzeigen
    Whilst there was lots of things that annoyed me about it, I was getting a lot of enjoyment from Risen 3, up until the first Sea Monster battle, which is where the game ended for me.
    Is the meeting with the first sea monster before or after the ritual from Kyla? I played this game two times, first as a voodoo pyrate, second time joining the mages, and still I can't remember much about the factions or the plot. Nothing made me to pay attention to the story. First you have to join a faction to get a bigger ship. Than you fight some guys (is important to close all the portals?), and in the end, after you join all the forces for some sea battle that is in fact the intro of the game (really? who had this brillian idea?) you go to some island where you meet your soul, or your soul meets your body, so if you can react and think and do stuff without a soul, and you can be mean or kind, this means that... whatever. And than, if you are a mage, you kill the final boss with two or three spells, if you are a fighter be prepared to reload the last (auto)save for one thousand times. So if you ask me, you haven't missed that much. Sorry for the heavy spoilers!

    Now. They have done a lot of good stuff in Risen 3. This is why I can't wait to see what they are working at right now. And it's the first time time I don't want to see this feature or that feature implemented in their game. Let's see with new eyes what they think that it's a fun game to play with.
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    Is the meeting with the first sea monster before or after the ritual from Kyla? I played this game two times, first as a voodoo pyrate, second time joining the mages, and still I can't remember much about the factions or the plot. Nothing made me to pay attention to the story. First you have to join a faction to get a bigger ship. Than you fight some guys (is important to close all the portals?), and in the end, after you join all the forces for some sea battle that is in fact the intro of the game (really? who had this brillian idea?) you go to some island where you meet your soul, or your soul meets your body, so if you can react and think and do stuff without a soul, and you can be mean or kind, this means that... whatever. And than, if you are a mage, you kill the final boss with two or three spells, if you are a fighter be prepared to reload the last (auto)save for one thousand times. So if you ask me, you haven't missed that much. Sorry for the heavy spoilers!

    Now. They have done a lot of good stuff in Risen 3. This is why I can't wait to see what they are working at right now. And it's the first time time I don't want to see this feature or that feature implemented in their game. Let's see with new eyes what they think that it's a fun game to play with.
    Twas the the very first time that I faced a sea monster battle, and figured out that it was going to take 45 minutes to beat.....jacked in the game there and then......

    The story in Risen 3, I couldn't care less about it...and now that you have 'spoiled' it for me, I care even less for it.....sounds totally lame...but PB did do some very good stuff in Risen 3, very reminiscent of their earlier games. Would be great to see them 'go back to their roots'. Not sure whether that means telling some 'marketing expert' from their publisher to take a hike, making sure certain personnel at PB have less input into the direction of the game and making sure that others have more input, or whether it would basically require a time machine, to take the guys behind the first Gothic games back to their 20s, when their hearts were truly into making these sort of games, and the whole process was truly exciting and inspiring to them, with the passion they felt for their game, being reflected in their game.

    Perhaps that is it. Perhaps like how a lot of pop stars or comedians hit a certain age where they find that they 'just aren't that into what they do', and the quality of their output suffers.
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    Not sure whether that means telling some 'marketing expert' from their publisher to take a hike,
    It's not something they can do. Why? Read on
    Zitat Zitat von MatDerKater Beitrag anzeigen
    making sure certain personnel at PB have less input into the direction of the game and making sure that others have more input,
    Input have only the few people who are in charge of game design. The lead game designer is the one who's pitch is chosen by the studio and turned into a game.

    Zitat Zitat von MatDerKater Beitrag anzeigen
    or whether it would basically require a time machine, to take the guys behind the first Gothic games back to their 20s, when their hearts were truly into making these sort of games, and the whole process was truly exciting and inspiring to them, with the passion they felt for their game, being reflected in their game.

    Perhaps that is it. Perhaps like how a lot of pop stars or comedians hit a certain age where they find that they 'just aren't that into what they do', and the quality of their output suffers.
    It's not about the age, it's about two other elements.
    First: When they developed Gothic 1, they were in the middle of the dot-com bubble. They got a lot of money for jerking around. Iirc, development on G1 started around 1997, while the game was released in 2001. They had 4 years for a reaaaaly small game. Sure, time is good to have, but it's not affordable in this day and age, when every single year for developing a game with their size costs at least another 1 million euros in salaries. Considering the outsourcing work, the licensing of different tools (windows, 3d max etc.), hardware costs, maintenance costs and so on, I would say 2 million a year of development is a pretty shy estimate. It could go to 4-5 million a year for a small team.

    Second element concerns the fact that they have other responsibilities now. If in 2000 they were barely out of college and they could afford getting a job at McDonalds if necessary, now they have families and need to provide for them. They can't take a shit on the publisher's desk and get into a dick measuring contest, they have to follow the rules and let things go.

    Koch is a huge conglomerate. Koch media is also pretty huge, but they (as any sane responsible business) prefer having a steady income from a lot of different game, each with their small target audience, rather than risk developing only a couple of huge titles for 15 million (+ another 15 million at least in marketing). The Witcher 3 cost for example 35 million to make, and another 35 was spent on marketing.

    Now. AAA titles start at 10 million. If I read well the subtext, that is what DS chose to spend on Risen 2 and 3, or roughly that. Say 2 million/year just for PB and an additional 4 million for outsourcing.

    But I think it is safe to assume they cut a lot of the spending when it comes to marketing. Considering that a portion of the price is manufacturing (CDs, printing, shipping etc.), and that Risen 2 sold around 1 million copies (I would average that to 20 euros/piece, considering how R2 was in a lot of bundles), also the retainers by digital publishers, and the fact that at least a couple of millions were invested in marketing, out of the 20 million income I think they maybe got 2-4 million profit at most. And then you have to cut from those money the salaries of those involved in DS with the project AND the profit taxes and then split the reminder among the shareholders.

    Sale figures: http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum...7#post24224597

    They can't afford investing more in a game, especially since Risen 3 seems to be a huuuuge flop.
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    Lately, not even PB could match them
    Lately? Since Gothic 3 they couldn't match them, that's almost a decade.

    Gothic 1 and 2 were perfect RPGs and definitely better than Witcher 1, even Witcher 2 in terms of open world and freedom. Gothic 3 and the whole Risen series however were just mediocre, with Risen 1 being an exception although it's direct competitor at the time, Witcher 1, was the better game.
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    with Risen 1 being an exception although it's direct competitor at the time, Witcher 1, was the better game.
    Not really. IMO Risen 1 was as good as Gothic 1 or 2, just a little downgraded. The only and single problem that game had was the overall lack of lore. Besides that it had perfect combat, perfect art direction, perfect feeling, perfect everything. Especially the voice-acting and localization.

    The only thing TW1 had better Risen was the graphics. The combat sucked, the GUI was cluncky, and the writing was pretty generic for a fantasy game. The world was anything but open. TW1 had some awesome ideas, but the execution was deeply lacking. On the other hand, Risen 1 took no risks and the execution was flawless. Risen 1 > TW 1.
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    In my opinion, TW1 looks FAR worse than Risen 1. The latter has dense vegetation, awesome lighting, better looking water, weather and so on. Even Gothic 3 isn't worse than TW1.

    But the story was better in TW1, although I like TW2 and 3 much more here.
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    In my opinion, TW1 looks FAR worse than Risen 1. The latter has dense vegetation, awesome lighting, better looking water, weather and so on. Even Gothic 3 isn't worse than TW1.

    But the story was better in TW1...
    I agree. TW1 looked pretty dated, but the story got me hooked. While TW2 had much better graphics, for me it was a massive step back in every other aspect.
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    TW1 was a low cost game, running on super old engine from people without experience. TW2 was for me just a beta test for their own engine, so we can now play brilliant TW3 But please don't even think about comparing TW3 and any piranhas game, cd projekt red had much more money and ten time more people.

    PS. I hope we are talking about The Witcher, not Two Worlds, also good polish RPG.
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    Ritter Avatar von Abus Bambus
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    But the story was better in TW1, although I like TW2 and 3 much more here.
    Exactly, and in my opinion, a good story outweighs things like graphics. And to be honest, I didn't think the combat was THAT bad in The Witcher, it was ok.

    I agree Risen 1 had a very nice combat, in fact the best PB did so far. But I disagree on the "perfect art direction, perfect feeling, perfect everything" part. Risen 1 was good, but far from perfect. It was a good basis to improve upon in later games. But instead they threw all that away and made Risen 2...
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