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  1. #1 Zitieren
    Kämpferin Avatar von Jenny PB
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    Hello everybody,
    you can support us at the public voting for the German Games Award.
    http://dcp-voting.gamezone.de/ You just have to switch off all filters and choose "All Titles"
    We would be happy about your vote.

    Kind Regards,
    Jenny
    Jenny PB ist offline

  2. #2 Zitieren
    Warrior Avatar von Morgannin09
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    I was trying to vote, but I couldn't answer the security questions, since Google Translate doesn't work very well... "Tastes salt salty?" is one of the questions I got, for example... Took a few tries before I realized I'm still supposed to answer in German Got it now, though.
    YouTube channel for Let's Plays and shenanigans: https://www.youtube.com/c/Morgannin
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  3. #3 Zitieren
    Warrior Avatar von The Ore Baron
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    >thinking Risen 3 is worth any awards
    >hoping PB fans will stand up for PB after months of silence and neglect
    Jenny, you're hot, but you're way out of your element here.
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  4. #4 Zitieren
    Ranger Avatar von Grimmwulf
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    With World of Tanks, Banished, and Europa Universalis IV in the mix, I can't justify a vote for Risen 3. I've invested significantly more time in those games. I feel a little bit bad about it, because I want PB to succeed, but still.
    Das war's mit dir, du Mistvieh!
    Verdammte Enten!
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  5. #5 Zitieren
    Warrior Avatar von Morgannin09
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    To be honest, I only voted for it because I hardly played any other games last year, except Dark Souls II, which was much more disappointing to me.

    But Ore Baron is not totally wrong. I would hope that Piranha Bytes would seek to restore our good will by engaging with us a bit more, at least as much as you do on the German side of the forum. You shouldn't drop in and expect us to throw you a bone without having done the same for us. We'd like to hear from you, to know we aren't held in some kind of disdain from the developer, just because we are, as consumers, fairly critical of what we buy.

    It's a bit disappointing, really. I did get a fair share of my subscribers to check out this forum, don't really know how many of them registered here, but I know by now they pretty much all quit when they saw how little attention this place really got. I hope we don't lose this forum the way we lost World of Gothic, as it did get pretty active during the pre-release window of Risen 3. Whatever title they announce next would probably bring even more, if they just gave us something to gab about here and there.
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  6. #6 Zitieren
    Ranger Avatar von Forward
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    but that's exactly the "thing", we have nothing to talk about, do we even have a question thread? I mean... would you even bother answering?
    Forward ist offline

  7. #7 Zitieren

    Metasyntaktische Variable
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    do we even have a question thread?
    Yes, we do: http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum...-Piranha-Bytes

    Last visit by a Piranha about a year ago.

    Also, we can't ask (good) questions if we don't know anything about the new project. And even if we did ask, most answers would be: "That's still a big secret". Most people have given up on making suggestions or asking questions because they have realised the futility: First, it's all a big secret and you know nothing and hence, can't really contribute anything. And by the time you do get any useful information about the game, the development is too far ahead for PB to change anything. By the time we learn about an aspect of the game we don't like, it's way too late to alter it. We can only close the stable door after the horse has already escaped.

    This whole secrecy by Deep Silver and Piranha Bytes is, in my opinion, counter-productive. I think it would significantly improve the game if the community could participate in the early stages, where everything is still open. Yes, if you give out information, people will talk your ideas apart. I can see the appeal of developing in peace without "outside interference". It's great when it works. But in case of PB/DS, I think it doesn't. I believe their games aren't as... suboptimal as they are because PB is stupid or couldn't do better. It's because they isolate themselves and then fall victim to groupthink.

    If they openly communicated with the community, we could provide outside opinions. Even if many of these opinions turn out to be crap in the end, there are bound to be some diamonds in the muck. And even the muck is still valuable if it causes you to reflect on your own decisions and perhaps inspires you to new ideas. Creativity doesn't happen in a vacuum. You need input to create output. And if your own ideas are really so much better than anything the community could possibly offer, then you would have no problem defending these ideas.

    Then there's the publisher who is responsible for muzzling the developers in the first place. DS is concerned about their marketing. But marketing is a secondary priority. The product itself should come first. You need a good product first, then you can worry about how to sell it. Open communication can improve the product. And a good product is its own marketing. Without a good product, all your marketing is an uphill battle. And listening (really listening, not just "yeah, yeah") to your actual customers is bound to make your product better.

    DS often claimed that they don't want to shoot all their marketing ammunition at once. But that view is based on the premise that the amount of information is limited. For well-crafted RPGs, this is not the case. They have the unique advantage of providing limitless information. So there's no risk of running out of marketing material before the release. If the developer did his job, then they have created this big fictional universe. A world bible that outlines dozens of countries, peoples, political and religious orginisations, alliances and wars. Thousands of years of fictional history, all culminating in the events that will, in the end, be portrayed in the final game. The IP itself allows you to generate virtually infinite amounts of information about your game world. I therefore call bullshit on the notion that you have to "manage" information about your game like a limited resource.

    Of course, PB games don't have such a well-crafted IP. But they should. And if they did, marketing secrecy would become obsolete. And then, only the positive effects of communication with your customers would remain.

    Then again, what do I know about publisher business? I don't even wear a competence prosthesis.
    foobar ist offline Geändert von foobar (18.03.2015 um 19:14 Uhr) Grund: typo

  8. #8 Zitieren

    Piranha-Bytes
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    With World of Tanks, Banished, and Europa Universalis IV in the mix, I can't justify a vote for Risen 3. I've invested significantly more time in those games.
    Hardly surprising:

    WoT being PvP multiplayer (I personally have spent more time with it than with any single RPG and 3k matches is not even much) and Banished and EU being simulations/grand strategy (I suppose my playtime with Civ I-III surpasses any other playtime. HOI II might come in second, but I do not really track my playtime).
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  9. #9 Zitieren
    banned
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    WoT being PvP multiplayer (I personally have spent more time with it than with any single RPG and 3k matches is not even much)
    I hope you are not one of those annoying arty players
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  10. #10 Zitieren
    Ehrengarde Avatar von Colm Corbec
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    [...] For well-crafted RPGs, this is not the case. They have the unique advantage of providing limitless information. So there's no risk of running out of marketing material before the release. If the developer did his job, then they have created this big fictional universe. A world bible that outlines dozens of countries, peoples, political and religious orginisations, alliances and wars. Thousands of years of fictional history, all culminating in the events that will, in the end, be portrayed in the final game. The IP itself allows you to generate virtually infinite amounts of information about your game world. I therefore call bullshit on the notion that you have to "manage" information about your game like a limited resource.

    Of course, PB games don't have such a well-crafted IP. But they should. And if they did, marketing secrecy would become obsolete. And then, only the positive effects of communication with your customers would remain. [...]
    Well said foobar! But I’m not sure if there is anyone in the actual PB team understanding what you are trying to say or even caring about it.
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  11. #11 Zitieren
    Warrior Avatar von Morgannin09
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    Well said foobar! But I’m not sure if there is anyone in the actual PB team understanding what you are trying to say or even caring about it.
    He wasn't targeting PB with his comments. It's Deep Silver who's put the muzzle on PB, most likely, assuming they still have a publishing contract. They have been a bit more talkative on the German side, but that's just out of the convenience of language barriers. Even then, based on what little I could scavenge with Google Translate, there's hardly been any applicable chatter there either - I know that they've been testing dev kits for PS4 and Xbone, for example, but that's not surprising.

    But Deep Silver handles all the marketing, especially internationally, because they are the multinational publisher. They have the chops and the capital to handle all the marketing, and it's their choice in the end of where and how to market. Unfortunately, they're doing it terribly, for all three parties involved, and in the end it's PB that suffers. They should give PB a bit more slack on their leash, since we would value their word much more highly (how highly is debatable, but I surely don't trust even the most objective details from Deep Silver anymore).

    And I dearly wish PB would take any opportunity to share what they're free to share. I've got a rapidly growing YouTube channel that devours every scrap of Gothic and Risen I have been posting, and I can say for damn sure that Gothic fans the world over would be very intrigued to hear what PB has coming next... probably, as long as it isn't more Risen.
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  12. #12 Zitieren

    Metasyntaktische Variable
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    He wasn't targeting PB with his comments.
    Not directly. But they signed the contract that muzzled them. I don't think anyone put a gun to their heads. So they're not completely innocent in this.

    Generally speaking, we're never really told anything about contracts between publishers and developers and who is ultimately responsible for what. Therefore, I usually apply to them both what my grandfather used to say about politicians: Put them in a bag, tie it up and keep hitting it with a large bat. You'll always hit the right one.
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  13. #13 Zitieren
    Apprentice
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    Risen 3, game of the year? Not likely.

    Risen 3 gets far more negativity directed towards it than it deserves from the usual Anglo-Saxon gaming media that just don't get Gothic/Risen games (or haven't been paid big enough bribes by the publisher) and from the core Gothic fanbase who are chomping at a bit for another Gothic title and anything less will never do. Yet for all it's faults, Risen 3 is still a very good game which I am finally enjoying, now that I have come up with a workaround for the idiotic 'arse for elbows' default gamepad config.

    But at some point after Gothic 3, which was too ambitious a project for PB to complete in the time constraints given to them by their publisher, and Risen 1, which was PB demonstrating that they are clearly capable of knocking out a well oiled fully functioning action RPG title, it seems that PB have lost the heart that they used to put into their earlier games.

    PB games have always been cartoonish in their storytelling and with their in game characters, but it seems that with Risen 3, PB have made the final step in the transition from being more like the Brothers Grimm, to being more akin to Walt Disney and it just isn't what PB's core fanbase want. Also PB have taken a somewhat misguided route with regards to their combat system. They were on what seemed like a very right track with Risen 1, and by the time the Gothic 3 CP team had gotten up to patch 1.5 or whatever, the combat in that game was in cracking shape, so what is being churned out since Risen 2, is quite frankly baffling and very much a continuation of a step in the wrong direction. Considering how much time in the game is spent beating things up, the combat is almost as important as the story telling and in-game characters.

    On the plus side, the environments in Risen 3 are as stunning and as interesting to explore as ever, the game is full of neat little quirks and ideas, and from a purely technical perspective, Risen 3 has been released in overall better shape than any previous PB game, but like i said, it seems that the core team at PB don't have the same heart for their work as they did in previous years and i would be very surprised if even core PB game fans vote for Risen 3 as their game of the year.
    MatDerKater ist offline Geändert von MatDerKater (19.03.2015 um 12:36 Uhr)

  14. #14 Zitieren
    Kämpferin Avatar von Jenny PB
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    Hi,
    it's me again. First thing i want to tell is, that we're not going to wait till a half year before release this time! But there's nothing to announce, yet. I just can say, we're able to make a new game and we read your suggestions thoroughly. We're going to change many systems and features and want to be more brave, next time. Questions about the new project will be answered after the announcement and questions about us or our company can be asked now, we will give an answer (like Harry did in the questions and answers thread), if we can. I'm looking forward to the time we can share our ideas and plans with you.

    And of course you're free to vote for another game just as well.

    By the way, allthough we're not nominated in any category for the german games award, you voted us into the top 20 yesterday. Thanks for your support!

    Kind Regards,
    Jenny
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  15. #15 Zitieren

    Piranha-Bytes
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    I hope you are not one of those annoying arty players
    No, sir.
    Current stats: 322xHvy, 1179xMed, 457xLt, 414xTD.
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  16. #16 Zitieren
    Warrior Avatar von Morgannin09
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    Not directly. But they signed the contract that muzzled them. I don't think anyone put a gun to their heads. So they're not completely innocent in this.

    Generally speaking, we're never really told anything about contracts between publishers and developers and who is ultimately responsible for what. Therefore, I usually apply to them both what my grandfather used to say about politicians: Put them in a bag, tie it up and keep hitting it with a large bat. You'll always hit the right one.
    Sometimes it's a matter of putting on a leash, just so someone can pull you out of the hole. Without knowing the details of the contract PB signed back then and what other, if any, publishing contracts they had to choose from, I won't assume that they gleefully threw themselves into a cage for this deal.

    And Jenny, it's good to see you back in this here international side, at least, and we hope you stick around when we bug you with questions
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  17. #17 Zitieren
    Ehrengarde Avatar von Colm Corbec
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    He wasn't targeting PB with his comments. It's Deep Silver who's put the muzzle on PB, most likely, assuming they still have a publishing contract. [...]
    I thought he directly addressed PB (the developer) in the quoted part. From my understanding he criticized that PBs latest games are lacking a rich and deep fantasy universe to provide DS (the publisher) with enough material for a good, less restricted marketing and fodder for conversations without revealing too much of the game itself. So, marketing-related DS heavily depends on PBs creativity and what they are coming up with. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    By the way this is my biggest wish for PBs next project, not just another game but a big, well thought out, growing fantasy universe with tons of lore and more than enough to discuss for years to come.
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  18. #18 Zitieren

    Metasyntaktische Variable
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    I thought he directly addressed PB (the developer) in the quoted part. From my understanding he criticized that PBs latest games are lacking a rich and deep fantasy universe to provide DS (the publisher) with enough material for a good, less restricted marketing and fodder for conversations without revealing too much of the game itself.
    Like I said, they're both to blame. DS with its secrecy fetish and PB with this - let's call it - less than affectionate IP design.

    It's like a vicious circle: If PB had a better world bible, then DS would have no need to "ration" information. If DS didn't muzzle them, maybe they could create better worlds because they wouldn't have to work in such isolation from the customers.

    Maybe PB needed a publisher and couldn't find anyone else. But you also see no effort on PB's part to rid themselves of the dependence on publishing contracts. They still believe that the publisher knows the market better and is therefore vital to the commercial success. Björn mentioned this recently in an interview. This, of course, also implies that the publisher and his views on marketing have an influence on the final product (otherwise, there would be no need for this "knowledge").

    Other developers, who are just as long in the business, seem to have lost the faith in the publisher's superior knowledge. Or they never had it to begin with. Swen Vincke from Larian, for example, never made a secret of his conviction that publishers usually only disimprove games. So Larian worked hard and slowly, over the course of several games, freed themselves from publishers. Now they publish themselves (and they're a bigger studio than PB). And the result are games like Divinity Original Sin (which I think is a very good game).

    Maybe PB's faith in the publisher and his market divinations analyses are founded, maybe not. I have my doubts about them but I don't really know for sure. All I know is that they don't seem to be on the top of their game (pardon the pun).

    I guess we'll have to wait and see what the next project brings. If and when that is ever revealed. Personally, I expect another game from the burned Risen franchise. But who knows?
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  19. #19 Zitieren
    Knight Avatar von catalinux
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    I voted for Risen 3 because it was a nice game after all (and I haven't played another game in years).

    Funny enough, they wanted my e-mail, and they asked if "Ist kaltes Wasser warm oder kalt?" So I answered "kalt", and they said "Deine Stimme wurde gespeichert." Mission accomplie!

    @Jenny_PB: you said that "We're going to change many systems and features". Can you please give us an example of system of feature that you, or PB think that needs to be changed, and why (not that it will be actually changed)?
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  20. #20 Zitieren
    Warrior Avatar von Morgannin09
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    I read your post but I didn't realize which part of it Colm Corbec had quoted. You're right about the rather uninspired setting and story, I won't deny that. I am still of the firm belief, however, that Risen is not where Piranha Bytes had ever put their heart in. Risen was, by no means, an original, well-inspired story in the first place. It always felt like a somewhat throwaway game to me, a "proof of concept" in a way, where they proved they could make a really solid RPG again. For some reason Deep Silver really ran with it, though, and tried to get them to turn it into a major franchise. If there is any dedication and passion left in the designers, I feel that they probably had to sacrifice a generous share of it just to meet Deep Silver's demands, instead of putting their imagination into a new, well-planned IP. On top of that, they have to deal with Deep Silver's other requirements, such as how to slice up their game for DLC purposes and trying to jerry-rig their game for consoles they aren't familiar with and nobody will buy them on.

    Absolutely, Piranha Bytes should ditch their agreement with Deep Silver as soon as humanly possible. It would be fantastic if they could go indie. I'd be more than willing to buy even smaller bites of RPG greatness if they went the route of self-publishing, whether they crowdfund or not. I just want to see what they can manage if they're able to work without creative restrictions, to see what is left in them. Call me optimistic, but I want to give them one more chance to wow us, and I highly doubt they can do that with another Risen.

    As far as their faith in Deep Silver's marketing, I'm not convinced they really have any. A part of me fears that there might be an underlying sense at the studio that the contract with Deep Silver is the only thing keeping their lights on. Who knows how long they can pay the bills and paying their team if Deep Silver isn't writing the checks. The last two games haven't exactly been home runs as far as sales go, so they probably don't have a huge nest egg to rely on when they set out on their own, or gamble with a new publisher. Only time will tell, though.
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