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  1. #1 Reply With Quote
    Ranger Grimmwulf's Avatar
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    Most of you are likely familiar with GamerGate by now, so it'd be interesting to hear some of your opinions on it.

    There's good and bad apples on both sides of the issue, but I'm solidly pro-GamerGate for a variety of reasons:

    1. I think it's a very negative trend that gaming media increasingly conforms to the same kind of politically correct coverage and criticism of games.
    2. It was frustrating (but not really surprising) to learn that many of the key people in gaming media subscribe to the same newsletter where they coordinate their reviews (based on SJW ideological views).
    3. I greatly enjoy so-called offensive material in games. I value realism, and don't want games to increasingly become 'white-washed' as to not offend anyone.
    4. The anti-GamerGate slogan that "Gamers are dead!" makes me roll my eyes. It's bizarre wishful thinking on their part. And no, the kind of people who play Candy Crush once in a while aren't gamers in the true sense of that word. Typical console players aren't either IMHO, though I realize that may be stretching it a bit.

    Finally I've got to say these SJWs/pinkshirts just rub me the wrong way, moreso than even the most fundamentalist Christian is able to. Moralistic ideologues are enormously tiresome, especially when they're politically correct to boot. They represent exactly what I seek escape from while immersing myself in gaming.

    On the off-chance that you haven't heard about GamerGate yet, here's a thread with a variety of resources about it.

    Here's a quick summary video:
    [Video]

    P.S. Those two sources are pro-GamerGate. Opposing viewpoints are easily found on the majority of mainstream sites.
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    Grimmwulf is offline Last edited by Grimmwulf; 22.10.2014 at 19:54.

  2. #2 Reply With Quote
    Metasyntaktische Variable  foobar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmwulf View Post
    Most of you are likely familiar with GamerGate by now, so it'd be interesting to hear some of your opinions on it.
    Fertile female worker ants seem to work out, evolutionary wise. I really don't see a problem.
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  3. #3 Reply With Quote
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    Quote Originally Posted by foobar View Post
    Fertile female worker ants seem to work out, evolutionary wise. I really don't see a problem.
    Ah, a veiled accusation of misogyny. That's as shallow as claiming that Wikileaks is all about rape. I expected better from you, but it sounds as though you have a superficial understanding of what this is about. I'm by no means a good spokesman for it, so you should do yourself a favor and investigate opposing viewpoints yourself. The thread I linked to might be a good place to start. If you'd already done this, you'd know that GamerGate includes a large number of female gamers (if you're on Twitter, check #notyourshield) and that it has an altogether different purpose than what you've been mislead to believe. Either way, as I mentioned in my opening post there's bad seeds on both sides; the anti-GamerGate websites use those trolls as strawmen for the whole movement, even though it's a large decentralized movement with a high degree of diversity (which incidentally has donated large sums to pro-female and pro-minority gaming causes such as this, though that's admittedly not my own area of interest). Gamers aren't dead.
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    Since people are apparently reading this thread, here's a brilliant new summary by the YouTuber Thunderf00t:

    #Gamergate: The fight for the radical notion that gaming should be about GAMES!! -and NOT about pushing the social justice political agenda of hipsters by means of a corrupt and ideologically driven gaming media.

    [Video]
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    Grimmwulf is offline Last edited by Grimmwulf; 02.11.2014 at 03:31.

  5. #5 Reply With Quote
    Metasyntaktische Variable  foobar's Avatar
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    I understand I have to close this thread now to get laid by female indie game developers.

    <--- misogynist
    foobar is offline Last edited by foobar; 05.11.2014 at 16:57.

  6. #6 Reply With Quote
    Knight Ariogaisus's Avatar
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    I hate anything that limits this art form, but if I don't want to go to prison for rape, I have to hide my misogyny and my general discontent with society.
    'tis bad, but you deal with it.
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  7. #7 Reply With Quote
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    Right, so I'm for whichever side isn't misogynistic.
    Read the wiki article, but its confusing to me which side is which.
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  8. #8 Reply With Quote
    Ranger Grimmwulf's Avatar
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    Piranha Bytes should harness the power of the Sarkeesian Effect. Formidable sales statistics at 2:26 in particular.

    [Video]
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  9. #9 Reply With Quote
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    I am pro Gamergate because it says some things that need to be said.

    Gamers are prejudiced. Just think of all those super-model looking girls doing gaming streams. They are not seen as fellow gamers, but as pieces of meat that click some buttons. Think of any female protagonist for a game which was not physically attractive. You can't, can you?

    We all know bad games which got stellar reviews from big publications and nobody moved a finger. Everybody just went meh, and got over it. We also know great games which got pissed on by reviewers and again, nobody cared.

    Gamergate came from a minor game developed by a woman, which got a good review. Maybe it lacked a bit in some areas, but it wasn't a bad game. Had it been a game developed by a guy, nobody would have lost their shit. Developers and publishers let down players all the time, but on this one single occasion, there were serious threats, extremely antisocial behavior. That wouldn't have happened if a dude made a game.

    Gamers are diverse, yes, but that makes no difference if the most active and vocal part of the community behaves like this. The silence of the many made way for the terror of the few. Maybe there are talibans who actually want a good future, who don't believe in misogyny and indiscriminate killing, but does that make a difference? Even if those pacifist ones are 60, 70% of all talibans, does it really matter?

    Point is: the backlash against the gaming community is justified. As long as the normal people don't silence the few, everybody is just as guilty. Remember the harassment did not take place on a hidden forum or on the dark web, it was everywhere and nobody stopped it. So yeah, the backlash by the gaming media was justified.
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  10. #10 Reply With Quote
    Metasyntaktische Variable  foobar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maladiq View Post
    I am pro Gamergate because it says some things that need to be said.
    I’m not sure how to reconcile that statement with the rest of your post. Are you being sarcastic? Or am I missing a point?


    Quote Originally Posted by Maladiq View Post
    Think of any female protagonist for a game which was not physically attractive. You can't, can you?
    Not outside parodies, no. But try the reverse. Can you, outside of parodies, think of a male protagonist, who was not physically attractive? And I’m not talking about scars and other “manly badass stuff”. I’m talking about the middle-aged, balding fat guy, for instance.

    And look at the games that have a flexible character creation. Where the game actually allows you to play as an ugly beer-bellied dude, if you really want to. Or as an ugly chick. How many gamers of either gender actually make use of that? The avatar galleries I find on the web are full of attractive characters (or whatever the player in question probably considered attractive – melon-sized breasts aren’t everyone’s thing).

    So does this mean that games are especially anti-women? Or does it mean that everyone, no matter the gender, prefers to look at beautiful people?


    As long as the normal people don't silence the few, everybody is just as guilty.
    So are the majority of Muslims to blame for the terrorist attacks of a few radicals? Are all Christians just as guilty as the Christian fundamentalist who blows up an abortion clinic?
    foobar is offline Last edited by foobar; 16.04.2015 at 21:04. Reason: typo

  11. #11 Reply With Quote
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    I had written a long reply in response to Maladiq, but erased it since the risk wouldn't be worth the nonexistent reward. Not to mention that being pro-GamerGate is the less controversial opinion in comparison to the other, so naturally, I'd get a lot of backlash from most, alongside the possible ban.
    That's not to say that I completely associate myself with the anti-GG stance though.
    Ariogaisus is offline Last edited by Ariogaisus; 16.04.2015 at 20:50.

  12. #12 Reply With Quote
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    Quote Originally Posted by foobar View Post
    I’m not sure how to reconcile that statement with the rest of your post. Are you being sarcastic? Or am I missing a point?

    Maybe I am misusing the term. Isn't "gamergate" the name of the media reaction?

    Quote Originally Posted by foobar View Post

    Not outside parodies, no. But try the reverse. Can you, outside of parodies, think of a male protagonist, who was not physically attractive? And I’m not talking about scars and other “manly badass stuff”. I’m talking about the middle-aged, balding fat guy, for instance.

    And look at the games that have a flexible character creation. Where the game actually allows you to play as an ugly beer-bellied dude, if you really want to. Or as an ugly chick. How many gamers of either gender actually make use of that? The avatar galleries I find on the web are full of attractive characters (or whatever the player in question probably considered attractive – melon-sized breasts aren’t everyone’s thing).
    True. But at least the males aren't dressed He-Man style

    Quote Originally Posted by foobar View Post
    So does this mean that games are especially anti-women? Or does it mean that everyone, no matter the gender, prefers to look at beautiful people?
    Never said the games are anti-women. But gamers are. If reviews and the public opinion would bash Blizzard on dressing even the mightiest female heroes less than porn-stars are dressed at conventions, I think they wouldn't do it. They just go with what sells, can't blame them for that.

    Quote Originally Posted by foobar View Post
    So are the majority of Muslims to blame for the terrorist attacks of a few radicals? Are all Christians just as guilty as the Christian fundamentalist who blows up an abortion clinic?
    Exactly my point. They are not. Muslims have raised against ISIS and violence around the world. They actively fight them and try to put an end to it. Gamers usually don't trim out the black sheep from the heard. WoP has all my respect for doing this, not letting people go rampant. We are all behind computer monitors. It takes a couple of seconds to take action and you do not risk anything, yet people continue so stand idle while idiots blurt out racial and sexist slurs.
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  13. #13 Reply With Quote
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    Anyone familiar with Factual Feminist?

    I'm all against politicising videogames and I find Sarkesian very repulsive, but going with Gamergate would pretty much be tossing myself in with the Sad Puppies and various MRAs.

    And besides, I like me some Dorian/Anders ass and people still aren't over how DA has gay characters.
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  14. #14 Reply With Quote
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maladiq View Post
    Never said the games are anti-women. But gamers are.
    Same difference. Games are what developers and publishers make them. And they make them according to what they think the gamers will like. So they make sexy women and attractive men because it appeals to everyone's base instincts and sells shit.

    And if that's problem, I have a solution:

    • If you're a gamer and you actually want a game to be a certain way, then by all means, make your voice heard. Tell the industry what you want and what you're willing to pay for. I do it all the time. And in the end, buy what you like and don't buy what you don't like.

    • If you're a gamer who doesn't actually want something but feels obligated by societal pressure to say so (or at least not voice opposition), perhaps you should reconsider. Because you might end up with games you don't like.

    • If you're not a gamer and want games to be a way they aren't... well, the market is open. Everyone can go and make their own game, with their own tropes or lack thereof. And if that's really what people want, then it'll sell. And when enough of these games sell, then the industry will adapt. So go and do your thing. Don't tell others what they can't do. Add to the market. Don't subtract and take other people's fun away.



    Quote Originally Posted by Maladiq View Post
    Exactly my point. They are not. Muslims have raised against ISIS and violence around the world.
    Selective perception. The majority of Muslims have done no such thing. Because they're ordinary people. They're mothers and fathers, working hard to make a living. They take their kids to school and go to theirs jobs and mow their lawns and wash their laundry. Like everybody else. They have enough to worry about in their daily life.

    The people that do act against ISIS, for example, are those that have actual power. Governments with their armies and clerical figureheads with their influence. Gamers do not have a government. But there are figureheads. Like that guy TotalBiscuit. I hear he's big on YouTube. And he condemned any personal attacks. I've seen a lot of videos on the issue, a lot of them by gamers who, judging by their subscriber count, were quite prominent. But every single one them said that personal harassment is wrong and anyone who did it should be held accountable before the law.

    So why doesn't that count? Why does every single ordinary gamer - who just wants to play his games in what precious little free time he has besides his ordinary life - have an obligation to personally rise up against any perceived or asserted harassment (keep in mind that the allegations were only made but never proven to be real), whereas not every ordinary Muslim or Christian has to personally get involved against fundamentalists in their group (where the facthood of the crimes is not in question).


    Quote Originally Posted by Maladiq View Post
    Maybe I am misusing the term. Isn't "gamergate" the name of the media reaction?
    No, as far as I can tell, it isn't.

    It seems to be a reference to the Watergate scandal, initiated by the very gamers you are currently blaming. And, according to everything I've read on the issue, not because of any harassment. But because of the wider implications.

    Let me see if I can get it together correctly. I was really late to the party and only watched from across the street, so to speak. Everything I write is based on what research I did on the matter. But there's a lot of stuff out there and I can't look at everything. And it all was some time ago. And this is only a very short overview.

    It started with a female game developer who slept with a reporter from a gaming site directly after she got a good review. Now almost every gamer I have watched on YouTube or read about on this matter didn't actually care about the female developer. They all agree that what she did is her personal business. But they did care about the reporter and gaming media in general. Because it looked like sexual favours had been traded for good reviews and that hinted at corruption. They didn't "slut shame" the woman, they questioned the integrity of the male reporter and, by extension, his employer who kept him on as if nothing had happened. That was the scandal, the "GamerGate".

    Then there was a big media offensive with articles on many different sites which, in one way or another, claimed that "gamers were dead". Basically they said that the gamer culture was dead because they're all evil misogynists. Similar to what you said. Later it was discovered that all these different and seemingly independent gaming sites had a private communication channel in which they coordinated that offensive. And then, well, the shit hit the fan, as the wonderfully colourful American expression goes.

    Now, as far as I can make out, there are 3 parties or factions or whatever you want to call it in this whole mess:

    1. The media that claimed that female developers had been harassed and that video games were all sexist and that gamers are a bunch of misogynistic dinosaurs. Gamers say that every time someone tried to bring up a discussion about media corruption and how the media is antagonising their own demographic by writing stuff like "gamers are dead", they were painted by the media as sexists who are only trying to bully women out the gaming industry. The media claimed to have a legitimate political agenda which they were pursuing. I don't think any one of those sites ever did a story on this whole mess that anyone could seriously call "investigative journalism". At least I couldn't find any.

    2. The gamers that were frustrated because everyone accused them of sexism. Especially the female gamers had a problem with that. And the fact that even their existence was being denied, that they were all "sock puppet accounts". For whatever weird reason, the female gamers didn't like that (women, eh?). These gamers, however, were mostly angry at the media for going after the convenient and politically correct sexism angle, although it wasn't very well researched. While completely ignoring the potential corruption in their own ranks. The gamers felt they should do something about it. Which they did by starting the GamerGate movement. They are the GamerGate people!

      Since GamerGate is nothing but a hashtag that anyone can use, it's difficult to discern who truly belongs to the group. It's a very heterogeneous movement. There were some trolls using the hashtag to flame people. And those with an opposite agenda seemed quick to pick those trolls as prime example of the whole movement. However, GamerGate actually seemed to police itself. There was a group of GamerGaters who practically did nothing but look out for those trolls, call them out and try to put a stop to their actions.

    3. Certain female individuals (Sarkeesian, Wu, etc.) who poured oil in the fire by making claims of harassment by GamerGaters. However, they never substantiated their claims. Either they didn't go to the authorities or they ignored the advice given to them by the FBI (so how threatened could they have felt?). So far, I am not aware of any official investigation determining that any of these threats had been credible. It seems like most of it was just the bullshit you can expect to get on the internet, whether you're male or female. You know, typical aggressive flaming and trolling. That doesn't make it right, of course. But it's something that everyone who exposes themselves on the internet has to deal with on occasion. Whether they have a penis or not.

      Some of these females however, have been caught in a lie or two. And coincidentally, they made quite a bit of money with their, what some people call it, professional victimhood. Over 400,000$ on Kickstarter for a series of badly researched, badly sourced videos on certain tropes. Sabotaging a charity event that tried to get women into the gaming industry in favour of their own charity. Donations for said charity going into personal PayPal accounts. And all that. A lot of people seem to think that Sarkeesian, for instance, is actually a skilled con artist who played both sides for her own financial gain. Unfortunately, questioning her ethics or scientific methodology seems to result in the accusation of sexism. Of course, there are others who think of her as a voice of truth that could do no wrong.


    So, if you're asking people from group 1 or 3, then GamerGate is just some gamers slut-shaming poor women and harassing them and revelling in their own sexism, while pretending to have the moral high ground as they claim to only be interested in media corruption. If you ask people from group 2, then it's about a consumer revolt against media that seems to be corrupt, conspires behind their back, officially declares them dead, doesn't clean their own house and blocks any serious discussion by always bringing the topic or harassment and sexism back up.

    As far as I can tell, there are extremists on both sides. There are radical feminists who think that every man is evil and say it's rape when someone criticises them on Twitter. And there are GamerGaters who talk about "cultural marxists" who try to conquer the world with their evil agendas. Which makes it kind of difficult to sort this mess out. But I guess it's a polarising topic and, well, bickering is human nature.

    But I'm a male so what do I know? Here's another perspective on GamerGate and sexism and all that. From a woman (an aerospace engineer turned porn star, btw): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YySDfwOQImw
    foobar is offline Last edited by foobar; 17.04.2015 at 13:47. Reason: can't make a post that long without a few typos...

  15. #15 Reply With Quote
    General ICFabian's Avatar
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    Ich habe die Welt schon zweimal gerettet... jetzt bist du an der Reihe.
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  16. #16 Reply With Quote
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    Quote Originally Posted by ICFabian View Post
    Anyone familiar with Factual Feminist?
    Based Mom...
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  17. #17 Reply With Quote
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    Interesting, interesting.

    Well, I guess Gamergate would be a great movie, provided it came with some slight creative liberties (zombies, dinosaurs and deathrays). I would call it Bigots vs Feminazis!

    Now, on a serious note, was the game so bad as to raise suspicions of sexual favoritism? That is sexist against men and women at the same time.

    Also, women are far from being considered just gamers. A female gamer is either slurred or worshipped based on having a vagina. I haven't seen a female being treated as an equal in a gaming environment since Mistress Larisa and Magpie on WoGEn. And even then some people just crossed some limits.

    As some would say, some people put pussy on a pedestal, others in the kitchen.
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  18. #18 Reply With Quote
    Metasyntaktische Variable  foobar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maladiq View Post
    Now, on a serious note, was the game so bad as to raise suspicions of sexual favoritism?
    I don’t know, I haven’t played it. But it doesn’t matter, I think. Because reviews aren’t objective. No matter what you and I think about the game, it will probably never be possible to prove it. Unless one of them comes forward, I suppose.

    What matters is the appearance of impropriety. Let’s forget the gender issue and the sex. If a reporter wrote a piece on a politician that makes this politician look nice and shortly after that, the reporter gets a big check from this politician, do you even ask if the politician maybe really was a nice guy and the reporter just spoke the truth? Or would you say that accepting that check from the politician was unethical by the reporter either way?

    Because I think it’s the latter. You can’t have reporters and members of the industry they are reporting about in bed together. Neither literally nor figuratively. And if it does happen because of whatever circumstance, then the reporter should either recuse himself or at the very least disclose anything that could have influenced his writing. So that the readers at least know about it and can make their own informed decision as to whether or not they’ll trust his article.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ariogaisus View Post
    Based Mom...
    I'm really not surprised SJWs brand her a "conservative reactionary" and an "anti-feminist."
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  20. #20 Reply With Quote
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    Quote Originally Posted by foobar View Post

    What matters is the appearance of impropriety.
    But it can be just an appearance. Even if he slept with her, it wouldn't be much of a difference from a reviewer who is also a grupie and has sex with the front-man of the band she likes. Some people show respect through thoroughly trasforming the other person's genitals into a shambles.

    So it's not a good review because of the sex, it's the sex because of him liking her art.
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