[Nikolai81]

Like most people here I've played through Gothic 1-2 countless times, and I certainly have a favorite way to play them, namely as a mercenary. Playing as a mercenary seems most realistic and sensible to me because Nameless is a convict, he was imprisoned by the royalists, he has a mercenary kind of personality no matter which factions you join, and all nearly his friends are convicts and mercenaries themselves. Many of the optional side factions such as the Ring of Water, the Thieves Guild, and the Pirates and the Bandits of Jharkendar, also seem much more suitable for a mercenary to work with (a paladin pirate cutpurse would make any roleplayer cringe). The mercenaries also share Nameless' likely goals of breaking free from the barrier and finding a way off Khorinis.

When playing as a mercenary I tend to think of Nameless as being pro-freedom, anti-royalist, and anti-orc. This is unproblematic in Gothic 1, as everyone in the New Camp seem to share those views. Lee certainly does. It works similarly well in Gothic 2, where Lee and his mercenaries can still be considered pro-freedom, anti-royalist, and anti-orc. However in Gothic 3 it all seems to fall to pieces...

My question is to those of who like to play Nameless the same way I do: Which faction(s) did you choose in Gothic 3 and why? The dilemma, of course, is that in this setting the royalists are the freedom fighters, while the mercenaries are working with the orcs. My initial thought was that the mercenary faction was still the way to go in Gothic 3, as they're basically asserting their freedom with a "might makes right" or "survival of the fittest" approach (like Thorus does) and remain opposed to the royalists. However, it would make sense for Nameless to remain loyal to Lee, but he's a Nordmarian who hates orcs and thereby (I assume) hates the orc mercenaries. It's too bad his Nordmar faction isn't more influential. Perhaps it's most sensible to support the Nordmarians, the Rangers, and the Water Mages, without taking a side in the fight between orc mercenaries and royalists (or working for both sides).

All this may seem like nitpicky attention to detail and consistency, and it probably is. Still, I'd be interested in hearing which faction(s) you chose to support in Gothic 3 if you played as a member of Lee's mercenaries in Gothic 1-2.

Vielen Dank für Ihre Zeit!

[Kwonos]

Interesting thoughts. Maybe it depends on, which of the three virtues (pro-freedom, anti-royal, anti-orc) you like most. If you are mostly anti-orc and pro-freedom, you could support the Royalists as a means to an end.

With the help and support of the Rebels (pro-royals) you play the anti-orc way, which also provides the biggest freedom (ok, it might be discussable, but the king provides more freedom than the orcs in my opinion). In the end, i do not consider the mercenaries in G3 to be the same type as in G1+2 nor do they have the same ambition (G1+2: Freedom, Gold, etc; G3: handle the new reign of orcs, Gold)

So i would support the Nordmarians and the Rebels (anti-orc/pro-freedom), but NOT the King (and his reign) in person.

[Nikolai81]

Interesting thoughts. Maybe it depends on, which of the three virtues (pro-freedom, anti-royal, anti-orc) you like most. If you are mostly anti-orc and pro-freedom, you could support the Royalists as a means to an end.

With the help and support of the Rebels (pro-royals) you play the anti-orc way, which also provides the biggest freedom (ok, it might be discussable, but the king provides more freedom than the orcs in my opinion). In the end, i do not consider the mercenaries in G3 to be the same type as in G1+2 nor do they have the same ambition (G1+2: Freedom, Gold, etc; G3: handle the new reign of orcs, Gold)

So i would support the Nordmarians and the Rebels (anti-orc/pro-freedom), but NOT the King (and his reign) in person.

That makes good sense, thanks for the input. Come to think of it, Gorn is a mercenary through and through, and he immediately rallies to support the royalists (eager to kill orcs I suppose). So, I'll bite the bullet and work with the royalists (despite having overrun their castle in the Minental with orcs a few weeks earlier in order to recruit Torlof... oh well, at least I cleared out the orcs afterwards ).

[Konig Robar der 2.]

you should look at it like this: Mercanaries have only one goal. Take the job that is most profitable and ask no questions.
Mercenaries have no ideals or tabus. Thats why mercenaries sometimes work für the royalists and sometimes for the orks, depending on who is in charge.
All a mercenary cares for is gold.

Thats why should acutally be a paladine or a mage in gothic 2 and also becoming a mage in gothic 1. you are a chosen one. You have a destiny that is beyond that of a simple mercenary.
You are the holy enemy to banish the sleeper from this world for ever.
You are chosen to defeat the avatar of darkness, the undead dragon and carry the eye of innos. no other moral can do that.
and you are the chosen one to end the eternal stuggel of the gods once and for all.

and you want to tell me the nameless hero is a mere mercenary?

[Nikolai81]

you should look at it like this: Mercanaries have only one goal. Take the job that is most profitable and ask no questions.
Mercenaries have no ideals or tabus. Thats why mercenaries sometimes work für the royalists and sometimes for the orks, depending on who is in charge.
All a mercenary cares for is gold.

That's true for several of them, but definitely not all. Many are very focused on brotherhood and loyalty, and look out for each other. The mercenary factions are in many ways "Männerbunds". Lee is a leader with high values (he seeks justice, and refuses to betray his men), Gorn seems as loyal and reliable as a friend can be, and many mercenaries in general (such as Lares and Cord) seem to have the same kind of weltanschauung as the Water Mages. Even Thorus seems like a decent man, who sets loyalty to his men above all.

Thats why should acutally be a paladine or a mage in gothic 2 and also becoming a mage in gothic 1. you are a chosen one. You have a destiny that is beyond that of a simple mercenary.
You are the holy enemy to banish the sleeper from this world for ever.
You are chosen to defeat the avatar of darkness, the undead dragon and carry the eye of innos. no other moral can do that.
and you are the chosen one to end the eternal stuggel of the gods once and for all.

and you want to tell me the nameless hero is a mere mercenary?

We know he's a convicted criminal, and we can tell that he has a very mercenary kind of personality no matter which faction he joins. In example, consider how disrespectful and dismissive he is to the judge at the start of Gothic 1, and how he winks and smirks at Saturas as he depletes the magical energy from the New Camp's ore (without attempting to explain matters beforehand) when charging Uriziel. If you join the Militia in Gothic 2, Lares will laugh and say "Yeah, you'll read people the rules while picking their pockets". If I remember correctly, Milten expresses disbelief if you become a Fire Magician... and of course, as we know, Nameless has no qualms about turning to necromancy if it suits his purposes. When confronting Raven, Nameless even suggests that he's in fact the Chosen of Adanos, which would be suitable as he wields both the Eye of Innos and the Claw of Beliar (symbolizing balance), and of course is pragmatic about working with both paladins and necromancers - whatever gets the job done.

[Konig Robar der 2.]

well, the very fact of beeing a mercenary contradicts the sense of loyalty and brotherhood. the definition of a merceneary is one who fights for money or reward. give me one quest in gothic, exept for the main story line, where you fought for something you believed in without ANY form of reward? just because you believed in it.
I think just as you the nameless hero has a mercenary attidude, but only in the first chapters. after that he becomes loyal. it could be the case because there are almost no side quests left except for 2 in gothic 1 and a few slight quests in gothic 2. the game focuses on the story from chapter 2 on.

in gothic 3 you really are a mercenary. you allways pic the option that gives you the most xp and the most gold and the most influence.

Mercenaries have no sense of loyalty. Maybe some have, but that is not part of them beeing a mercenary. the moment a man follows his heart, he stops beeing a mercenary. lee is a tricky part. he is a mercenary but he uses it to fit his needs for vengence. he protects to mages in gothic 1 so they can destroy the barrier, he supports onar in gothic 2 got get of the ship and he serves no man in gothic 3 because he just wants go get rid of rhobar.

i dont like beeing a mercenary and also beeing a divinly chosen avatar. of innos adanos or beliar, doesnt matter. the chosen few are not mercenaries. that is just like beeing a pirate and a paladine.
yes it does not fit as well but you do not become a priate as a paladine, you become one as a member of the ring of water. as a servant of adanos you need their help. and adanos is neutral, for him there is no difference between a priate and a paladine. its the morality of innos that would prohibit that. well this is adanos world, therefore it is possible.

[Kwonos]

Perhaps we should remember that it's a role play game. So on the one hand you play as a player the role you like and you want to be. You could play a mercenary for other reasons than gold. for example G1: you sympathize with some of characters (Lee, Lares, Gorn)/ like their camp, G2: maybe you don't like the stiffy attitude of the knights or the hokuspokus of the firemages. then again you'll find at least old mates at Onar's farm. So gold must not be the reason to play mercenary as you can find yourself other sound reasons to join them in G1 and G2. Not to forget the points mentioned by Nikolai81 (some of them are very loyal!). The Game gives you the freedom as a player to fulfill the role as an Innos-chosen righteous Mage or Paladin who wants to cope/fulfill with his destiny as well as a more individualist, maybe spontaneous, pragamatic, down-to-earth survivalist. Of course this definition is highly discussable and polarizing, but you get the point.

The other point is that it's a game. Per definitionem a mercenary is only gold-interested, just as König Rhobar der 2. explained. But we should not forget that it's a game in which many real-life definitions fail if you take them too seriously. As this definition fits on many/most of the mercenaries I would say at least guys like Cord, Torlof, Lares, Gorn, and maybe even Wolf and Jarvis follow rather Lee's command than Anyone's gold. But that's just my humble opinion based on the way i observe the game.

[Nikolai81]

The more I think about it, the more convinced I become that the mercenary path is the most sensible and realistic one. You're convicted to slave labor for life, you make numerous friends among the fellow convicts, and you join the New Camp in order to help liberate everyone. Once free you remain loyal to your friends, fight for their cause, and work to secure passage off the island together. Thorus gives a good speech about this (loyalty to your comrades, securing mutual survival, etc.) if you speak with him after killing Raven.

Joining the Royalists after escaping from the colony, would be as though Spartacus had joined the Roman Empire after having escaped their gladiator pits. It's definitely not a choice that reflects loyalty and brotherhood at all, and you can tell that Lee and various others become very disappointed if they see you in the militiaman uniform.

Besides, the game offers many hints that the Royalists aren't all good guys either -- there's numerous corrupt "halsabschneiders" among them, just as among the mercenaries. Don't forget that the Royalists sentence people to slave labor for life, even for petty crimes (as with Valjean from Les Misérables, who stole a loaf of bread), including the innocent Lee who was framed by corrupt noblemen. Moreover, Lee's mercenaries have a decentralized reputation-based structure, and is very democratic when it comes to choosing a leader, in stark contrast to the hierarchical Royalists where you must know your place (i.e., anyone can walk right up to Lee in both G1 & G2, but if you try to reach Hagen you're stopped and treated like a louse at three different gates).

The claim that "the very fact of being a mercenary contradicts the sense of loyalty and brotherhood" doesn't ring true to me. That'd be as though someone told me "the very fact that you work in the private sector tells me you have no sense of loyalty and brotherhood"; because that's what a mercenary is, a private sector soldier. You can have good values even though you don't work for the establishment.

There's also the endings of Gothic 3 to consider. It's reasonable to assume that the ending where you banish the gods would have been considered the "canonical ending", because that's the scenario Risen starts with, and Risen would probably have been created as Gothic 4 instead if things had not gone awry with Jowood. A Paladin or Fire Magician character would almost certainly choose the Innos ending (from a role playing perspective), whereas it would make most sense for someone who's been with Lee's Mercenaries (and the Ring of Water) to bring balance by banishing the gods. And as it's suggested in NotR, Nameless may really be the Chosen of Adanos (Gothic 3 makes it clear that King Rhobar is the true Chosen of Innos).

Lastly I have to say that I obviously have a strong bias. On the mercenary path I can play as a rugged viking-like Drachenjäger who performs great deeds out of his own volition, as opposed to playing a tin can-man or skirt-wearing monk who carries out orders from ineffectual leaders. Also, more than 80% of the game is typically spent hunting beasts out in the wilderness, something which I immerse myself much better in when playing a character that looks like a hunter/ranger.

I'm definitely overthinking this... but how can I not, when playing such fantastic RPGs.

In any case... follow your heart, support your comrades, and join Lee's mercenaries.

[Konig Robar der 2.]

you actually dont work for getting of the island. you want to kill the dragons. that is your task and your desire. its just a happy coincidence, that you happen to need a ship to finish your task. but when in the game, does the hero ever say he wants to get of the island? there are 2 points: first in the very first dialoge with xardas, when he suggests to run away and in chapter 5 when he learned where he finds the undead dragon.

[Nikolai81]

you actually dont work for getting of the island. you want to kill the dragons. that is your task and your desire. its just a happy coincidence, that you happen to need a ship to finish your task. but when in the game, does the hero ever say he wants to get of the island? there are 2 points: first in the very first dialoge with xardas, when he suggests to run away and in chapter 5 when he learned where he finds the undead dragon.

The personal motivations of the Nameless Hero are something each player decides for himself.

I play him as an adventurer; he's intrigued by what Xardas tells him, first seeing it as an opportunity for fame and fortune, and perhaps most of all as a way to test himself and recover his lost strength. His first priority is to get in touch with his friends from the Minental though, so he questions some of the farmers and townsfolk about them, then meets up with Lares, who directs him to them at Onar's farm. He loyally fights for their cause (rather than turning his back on them), as he did in the Minental, making sure to carry his own weight and earn his keep. He shares his comrades' strong motivation to get off the island (they all practically beg you to take them with you when you're preparing to leave), realizing that the future of Khorinis is looking grim (orcish hordes beyond the palisade, Diego's comment on how the town is going downhill, Jack's comment on how the town has no future, etc.). He doesn't kill the dragons because it's a task he's been ordered to do, but because he sees it as an opportunity for great heroics, much like Beowulf did in regards to Grendel.

[Söldner vom See]

Your are pointing out why Gothic 3 is a total blow-out in my opinion. The first time in the game I saw an orc was is in the old mine and I asked myself the question: Is it adequate to slave an orc? At least it was the code of ethics i was having playing this game. In Gothic 1 you are getting to learn the orc culture. Orcs are far from being animals because they have developed an own occult culture. After slaughtering orcs here and then and after talking to Xardas and Ur-Shak, you receive information about their identity, the true orc-culture. However, every orc in the whole valley will attack you because you are an enemy, a human. That is why you feel like a stranger when you pass the bridge to the orc-city with the Ulumulu. By making your first steps into this city, the culture is brought much closer to you. In the temple you might have read the letter of a human slave who was trying to flee.
Receiving all these detailled information are building up a structure about your point of view on orcs. They are enemies, but no usual creatures like snappers.

In Gothic 2 you experience that these creatures are true conquerors, maybe just like humans are. But you never forget: They are your enemies and you would never drive a bargain with them, instead you see the answer in slaughtering them. There is simply no other choice.

And here we are, the emerged land. How comes that you have never heard a word about humans interacting with orcs over there when you were still on Khorinis? All you know of is a war between humans and orcs, the mightiest impression you probably got was from the Gothic 1 intro, where archers are shooting arrows on an open field filled with a huge army of orcs. Humans need ore to fight them with better weapons. What else would you expect than a total war?
Having landed on the emerged land everything you expected fell to pieces. This must not be a negative aspect of a game, but in this case it clearly is a heavy breakdown for the atmosphere. Orcs are different, all talk your language. Something you thoght Ur-Shak was privileged to. Orcs hire mercenaries in order to strengthen their position. What? They hire humans? You would expect them to slave people from our race, but intense interaction after all you have been through? After all your battles. You feel proud having killed your first orc. And on this land i must not kill them, i can instead talk to them? Even join them? It is just something that does not suit into this world.
And why would you not slaughter every creature in a thousand pieces in this world after having defeated the undead dragon? Most likely the mightiest creature exhisting...

So to conclude my thoughts: I would never join these mercenaries, they are miserable traitors! They have nothing to do with Lee and the other loyal mercenaries you meet in Gothic 1 and 2. All you can do is support the rebells and help Lee take revenge on King Rhobar.

[ildormiente]

Orcs hire mercenaries in order to strengthen their position. What? They hire humans? You would expect them to slave people from our race, but intense interaction after all you have been through? After all your battles. You feel proud having killed your first orc. And on this land i must not kill them, i can instead talk to them? Even join them? It is just something that does not suit into this world.
.

While I do agree that it is strange that all orcs suddenly speak the human language in G3 and it would surely be more exciting if they had a culture more similar to G1, I have no problem with them hiring human mercenaries. I think they just could not afford to enslave all the humans. They have to make a deal with some of them and give them a higher position in their society for stability's sake. I think that this move shows how intelligent the orcish leaders actually are. They are simply playing "divide and conquer" with the humans. Dividing the humans into a "pro-orc party" and a "anti-orc party" gives them the real power over Myrtana. After all, it is impossible to conquer a country only by military force. Not even the orcs can manage that.

And I think that especially a mercenary hero could be pragmatic enough to work together with the orcs when he thinks it is necessary. If you interprete the hero more in a G2-Classic-Paladin way, then he should of course fight for the king and Innos against the invaders. But also in this case it makes sense to talk to the orcs because you should better know your enemy.

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About the initial question: I can also imagine the hero supporting the Assassins in G3. That is of course only if you don't have to fight the water mages to get enough influence (I think that in the original game, you had to kill at least one of the mages, but there are some mods which give you another way to reach 75%). The reasons for that are:

- The Assassins are allied with the orcs at the beginning of G3, but they are not really pro-orc and they follow their own strategy.
- While they are the "Beliar faction", they are very different from the servants of Beliar in G2. It seems that many are only interested in gold.
- They are neither pro-orc nor royalists AND they are also against Xardas. If you interprete the story of Gothic in a certain way, the hero can have very good reasons to mistrust Xardas in G3.
- Zuben has to be killed anyway, and as the new leader of the Assassins, the hero may have many possibilities for his own strategy, including reconciliation with the water mages. Even if Beliar is officially in power with this ending, the hero is still there. But the game ends too fast at this moment to know what would really happen.
- While the Assassins are not described as loyal fighters or good comrades (like the mercenaries in G1), but more as greedy backstabbers, the other factions are not really better in this aspect (corrupt orc mercenaries, robbing rebels etc.). And at least, some of the Assassins appear to be quite funny (e.g. at the arena of Bakaresh).

So, I'm not trying to say that the Assassins are the best choice in G3 from a roleplaying perspective, but they are still a possible choice I think. Especially if you interprete the hero as an anti-orc, anti-royalist AND anti-Xardas person after what happened in G2/between G2 and G3.
Moreover, the hero's quite sarcastic attitude in G3 sometimes gives me the impression that he is a bit stressed out, which could make him more unpredictable. His character appeared to be a bit different in G1 and G2 after all.

[Nikolai81]

So to conclude my thoughts: I would never join these mercenaries, they are miserable traitors! They have nothing to do with Lee and the other loyal mercenaries you meet in Gothic 1 and 2. All you can do is support the rebells and help Lee take revenge on King Rhobar.

Thanks, that was very sound argumentation, I definitely agree with the conclusion. In fact if you support the orc mercenaries in Gothic 3, even one of the orc chieftains (the one in Montera if I remember correctly) berates you for being a race traitor, and says that he holds greater respect for human rebels than for scum like us.