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I don't think that (in real life) it's as simple as making a definite distinction of whether a penal system is about punishment or rehabilitation. In my opinion it is (and should be) a bit of both; and add a third, to contain such elements of whom no punishment or rehabiliation can make working parts of society. I think it has been proven by studies that countries with the harshest, most punishing criminal systems have some of the highest repeat offender rates - what is cause and what is effect sounds like a legit question, but I do think it also highlights the problematic in reacting to crime with punishment only: when the criminal is given no positive motivation and incentive to strive for another path in life, he'll just take the punishment in stride.
On the other hand, I think in some cases (moderate) punishment can be effective, even a form of rehabilitation. I'm mainly thinking of juvenile delinquents who're not bad eggs or ready career criminals already; a concept I believe some have called "scared straight" - show them how fucking awful the consequences can be, and give them a chance to re-enter society without permanent negative consequences.
Also, we humans are base beings. We demand punishment for those who transgress against us - that's how most people work. If the penal system does not mete out punishment, then there is a risk of someone else doing it. Vigilanteism, posses, lynchings. I see the penal system as a controlling organ here, dealing out punishment in a controlled, centralized and as much as possible, objective manner; to satisfy the need of the violated society to see the violator punished. But at the same time offer the violator a real chance for redemption. The sentences have to be severe enough for society to respect the penal system as the "punishing organ", and at the same time constructive enough to give the condemned a real chance to re-enter society as a functional part of it.
As far as I know, in the US, criminals with a record have severe limitations imposed on them; they are less eligible to get social welfare, their right to vote is limited, and so on (I'm sure someone from the US will correct me if I'm totally wrong)... I don't understand how anyone can think of this as a good system, to keep on punishing the criminal when he has atoned for his crime, and give him no options except get lucky or go back to crime.
A bit of stick, and a bit of carrot, in a nutshell.
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Geändert von Dantos (18.04.2012 um 07:24 Uhr)
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Zitat von Dantos
Speaking of Jail I must go to school but I decided I will skip it for today. I'm not in the mood for it...
Good idea
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Zitat von Dino
Good idea
Boot Camp is a 5 Star Hotel next to School...
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Zitat von Hellbilly
Also, we humans are base beings. We demand punishment for those who transgress against us - that's how most people work.
I am no different, I just don't want that to be institutionalized. I'd sooner accept a wave of vigilantism.
We should try to transcend our own selves instead of pandering to basic irrational instincts.
Geändert von Bastardo (18.04.2012 um 10:49 Uhr)
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Zitat von One Stoned Bastard
I am no different, I just don't want that to be institutionalized. I'd sooner accept a wave of vigilantism.
Really? I wouldn't. I'd rather have a just (or what is generally considered just) sentence meted out through a process that strives for objectivity, rather than accept to place myself at the mercy of a posse whose concept of what crimes deserve what punishment and what constitutes condemnding evidence are shaky to say the least.
Zitat von One Stoned Bastard
We should try and transcend our own selves instead of pandering to basic irrational instincts.
On a societal level, isn't meting out punishment through a justice/penal system rather than vigilanteism just that? Transcending base insincts by allowing an external/separated authority handle it through a set of rules rather than instinctual reaction?
Also, it's not an irrational instinct if you ask me. It's very much founded in a rudimentary, primal logic and survival instinct: someone wrongs me once, they may wrong me again; them wronging me weakens me and (probably) depletes the resources I have for survival; hence, (violent) retribution is a logical consequence, and a necessity for survival in the most primal of situations which is from where our instincts come from.
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Zitat von Hellbilly
Really? I wouldn't. I'd rather have a just (or what is generally considered just) sentence meted out through a process that strives for objectivity, rather than accept to place myself at the mercy of a posse whose concept of what crimes deserve what punishment and what constitutes condemnding evidence are shaky to say the least.
I dunno lynch groups tend to do a lot more justice than the courts sometimes... especially when the masses demand blood and the courts do nothing.
And besides the Court is not some Institution Bigger Than Us. The normal people pay there paychecks so when those people demand blood they should get blood. If not vigilantes are created and the people take justice into there own hands (like the Old Testament). So sometimes the Institutions must give in to public pressure otherwise the very thing which they fear (Anarchy) may come full circle.
The judges there are put to protect and represent the interests of the common people above all else... well excluding following the Rule of Law which basically is on the side of the common people..
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Zitat von Hellbilly
Really? I wouldn't. I'd rather have a just (or what is generally considered just) sentence meted out through a process that strives for objectivity, rather than accept to place myself at the mercy of a posse whose concept of what crimes deserve what punishment and what constitutes condemnding evidence are shaky to say the least.
Again, I am the same, but you probably come across a sentence you consider just more often than I do.
On a societal level, isn't meting out punishment through a justice/penal system rather than vigilanteism just that? Transcending base insincts by allowing an external/separated authority handle it through a set of rules rather than instinctual reaction?
No, that is the same thing, only the whole nation is responsible for the fate of the criminal and not just the vigilante.
Also, it's not an irrational instinct if you ask me. It's very much founded in a rudimentary, primal logic and survival instinct: someone wrongs me once, they may wrong me again; them wronging me weakens me and (probably) depletes the resources I have for survival; hence, (violent) retribution is a logical consequence, and a necessity for survival in the most primal of situations which is from where our instincts come from.
Maybe that's not so irrational, but you can ground rape in primal logic and survival instinct. Should we institutionalize rape?
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Zitat von One Stoned Bastard
Again, I am the same, but you probably come across a sentence you consider just more often than I do.
Not necessarily, but the principle is sound even if the implementation is flawed.
Zitat von One Stoned Bastard
No, it is the same thing, only the whole nation is responsible for the fate of the criminal and not just the vigilante.
Well, yes and no. It's not based on the clouded judgement of a vengeful mob. I think case Breivik, from which this thread of discussion started (I think) is a good example. In a world of vigilante justice, he'd probably been strung on a branch. Now, he is being given a fair trial and allowed to speak his mind and plead his case. And his sentence will be based on a "standardized" set of sentences instead of the impulsive imagination of a mob. So I do think there are several important distinctions from vigilanteism.
Zitat von One Stoned Bastard
Maybe that's not so irrational, but you can ground rape in primal logic and survival instinct. Should we institutionalize rape?
No, and you are making a huge leap here. I didn't allude to a need for all instincts to be institutionalized, I only voiced my disagreement with you saying it's irrational. Conversely, compassion is also based on instinct and primal logic; should we also strive to transcend it, then?
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Zitat von Hellbilly
Well, yes and no. It's not based on the clouded judgement of a vengeful mob. I think case Breivik, from which this thread of discussion started (I think) is a good example. In a world of vigilante justice, he'd probably been strung on a branch. Now, he is being given a fair trial and allowed to speak his mind and plead his case. And his sentence will be based on a "standardized" set of sentences instead of the impulsive imagination of a mob. So I do think there are several important distinctions from vigilanteism.
But Norway's system is not punitive from what I understand. I was talking about a vigilante punishing someone versus a court sentencing someone for the sake of punishment.
No, and you are making a huge leap here. I didn't allude to a need for all instincts to be institutionalized, I only voiced my disagreement with you saying it's irrational. Conversely, compassion is also based on instinct and primal logic; should we also strive to transcend it, then?
Not unless there's something even better beyond. But if there is, why not?
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Zitat von One Stoned Bastard
But Norway's system is not punitive from what I understand. I was talking about a vigilante punishing someone versus a court sentencing someone for the sake of punishment.
I don't really see how your response(s) directly tie in with what I jotted down, because I quite clearly wasn't talking about a judicial system were punishment is the measure of sentencing. But a certain level of punishment is always involved in any form of forcible rehabilitation, that's something you can't get away from; forcible rehabilitation will unavoidably mean some degree of deprivation of freedom, which is a form of punishment in itself.
I guess this is another case where we largely mean the same thing, but just fail to understand it before a long and convoluted debate?
But yes, I agree that a system based primarily or solely on punishment is one doomed to fail in steering people away from a life in crime. There needs to be far more emphasis on rehabilitation, and ideally those succesfully rehabilitated should bear as little stigma as possible once they re-enter society. But then, at least from the viewpoint that an individual has certain irrevocable rights as well, even rehabilitation can go too far... I'm thinking about something like the Ludovico Method from A Clockwork Orange.
Zitat von One Stoned Bastard
Not unless there's something even better beyond. But if there is, why not?
Well, exactly! And I do think our system is (in principle at least) better than vigilanteism. It's not so good that it couldn't (shouldn't?) be improved upon, but it's better than gathering up your neighbours and stringing up them dirty robbers from the closest tree or taking them behind the barn and using the ax.
Geändert von Hellbilly (18.04.2012 um 11:49 Uhr)
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Zitat von Hellbilly
I don't really see how your response(s) directly tie in with what I jotted down, because I quite clearly wasn't talking about a judicial system were punishment is the measure of sentencing. But a certain level of punishment is always involved in any form of forcible rehabilitation, that's something you can't get away from; forcible rehabilitation will unavoidably mean some degree of deprivation of freedom, which is a form of punishment in itself.
I guess this is another case where we largely mean the same thing, but just fail to understand it before a long and convoluted debate?
But yes, I agree that a system based primarily or solely on punishment is one doomed to fail in steering people away from a life in crime. There needs to be far more emphasis on rehabilitation, and ideally those succesfully rehabilitated should bear as little stigma as possible once they re-enter society. But then, at least from the viewpoint that an individual has certain irrevocable rights as well, even rehabilitation can go too far... I'm thinking about something like the Ludovico Method from A Clockwork Orange.
Yes! Inevitable punishment is all the punishment you need to inflict. Just try and make things right as much as you can, and things will inevitably go wrong for the bad guys.
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Zitat von One Stoned Bastard
Yes! Inevitable punishment is all the punishment you need to inflict. Just try and make things right as much as you can, and things will inevitably go wrong for the bad guys.
Hmmm... would you agree with me if I said that "punishment" is the wrong word (for, after all, anything can be a punishment... in many cases, particularly forced rehabilitation!) and something like retribution or revenge would be better? Rehabilitation, not retribution. The punishment is, as we agree, inevitable.
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Zitat von Dantos
Or maybe we should learn to forgive and forget... come to think of it I've forgiven everyone who had ever crossed me.. sure it took time but I realized that sooner or later I'd have to face them again and It's better to just smile and show them they have not hurt you instead of looking like a sad cloud...
Forgiveness I think is the most powerful weapon one can have at his disposal. When he learns how to use it properly no one can actually hurt you mentally.
It certainly worked as a political gimmick for M. K. Gandhi.
Thing is, there are a lot of people who, if forgiven, tend to harm you even more. You have to retaliate in such cases.
Zitat von Hellbilly
Really? I wouldn't. I'd rather have a just (or what is generally considered just) sentence meted out through a process that strives for objectivity, rather than accept to place myself at the mercy of a posse whose concept of what crimes deserve what punishment and what constitutes condemnding evidence are shaky to say the least.
I second that.
Zitat von Dantos
I dunno lynch groups tend to do a lot more justice than the courts sometimes... especially when the masses demand blood and the courts do nothing.
Sure, sure, but perhaps you may have heard of a case or two, where the public thought a particular guy had committed the crime, whereas the court found evidence that it was some other guy. The courts were set up to make sure that the right guy got punished. And even then they sometimes convict the wrong person.
A lynch group is nothing but a bunch of violent fools who just want to pounce on who they think is the criminal and rip him to pieces. The idea of courts and evidence was to minimise the damage done to the innocent.
Zitat von Dantos
And besides the Court is not some Institution Bigger Than Us. The normal people pay there paychecks so when those people demand blood they should get blood.
So why should people pay for courts then? Why not have some sort of arena where a bunch of random guys get lynched or something? The people who pay for the arena demanded blood and got blood.
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Arenas would be nice...
I actually believe that a Trial by Combat is the best "trial" a person could have. It doesn't matter if he is guilty or innocent if he wins he is automatically exonerated
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Zitat von Dantos
Arenas would be nice...
I actually believe that a Trial by Combat is the best "trial" a person could have. It doesn't matter if he is guilty or innocent if he wins he is automatically exonerated
So if a murderer is put to a trial by combat, and he wins, then he's free to commit more murders then? What sort of worthless justice is that?
And how about some poor guy who only stole bread? He'll be obliterated in a single blow. So he died even then he only stole bread, whereas the murderer lived because he was clearly experienced in killing. Bonus points if he's an MMA wrestler or an army man, making him a very good bet.
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Zitat von Nisarg
So if a murderer is put to a trial by combat, and he wins, then he's free to commit more murders then? What sort of worthless justice is that?
And how about some poor guy who only stole bread? He'll be obliterated in a single blow. So he died even then he only stole bread, whereas the murderer lived because he was clearly experienced in killing. Bonus points if he's an MMA wrestler or an army man, making him a very good bet.
Well it's a risk
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