Water mages and fire mages

[Dez]

Anyhow I was wondering yesterday while playing gothic 2 once again.what is the position of watermages in gothic society.

1) Clearly Firemages are sort of the supreme court.Do you remmeber when they gave a mission to examine the illegal mineshare problem and Serpentes said that we mages are also judges, when hero asked why can't the militia handle this.

An other example of their position is the gothic 1 intro where judge is reading the sentence,the firemage shows that he has authority over him.The judge is defiently irrated, but toes the line without question.

2) Brotherhood of fire can also command paladins as we have noticed from many cases.And the people respect them more than king..

Watermages on the other hand seem to have taken care of teaching job.They are also healers and do the charity work.

One thing which also makes their position intresting is the the broken eye situation.Do you remember when pyrokar asks us to beg help from Vatras.Next hero asks why does he think that only vatras can help.Pyrokar gets furious and shouts than he does not need to explain his motives.

So It is clear that watermages have knowledge that firemages are quite jealous about. It seems that the relationship beetween these two brotherhoods is not utterly warm, even if they seem to respect eachother and work together.

Also what i'd like to know, do the paladins respect water mages.Clearly they are very fanatical in their Innos-faith, so i'd love to know what does Lord Hagen for instance think about water mages..

One of the most thrilling things in gothic III is to see whether they have any monestaries like the firemages.How can a person become a water mage?

[Klir]

Well, interesting.
Perhaps the Water Mages are more like some sort of ''seekers''. Like The Hermit in Tarot. :D
Hidden knowledge, hidden wisdom... They are sick and tired of the ''bureuocracy'' in which the Fire Mages are bound to exist.

PS: Ofcourse, this is all just my quasi-vivid imagination. :p

[Don-Esteban]

Firemages are the official judges and priests and they represent the gouvernmental power, because the belief in Innos is the state religion. Watermages are in my opinion something like the hidden force behind the curtain, powered by secret wisdom. Just like Klir said. Perhaps they have any plans concerning the future. And they tracking this plans in secrecy.

[Grimmwulf]

I often end up comparing things to AD&D, and if I should compare the gods of Gothic to those of the Forgotten Realms I'd say that Innos equals Tyr, Adanos equals Oghma and Beliar equals Bane. To me Adanos is a god of knowledge, and his priests (the Water Magicians) are primarily scholars and scribes. They also seem to operate similarily to the secret organisation "The Harpers" in the Forgotten Realm... doing things behind the curtains.

Whereas the Fire Magicians seems to be Lawful Good and Lawful Neutral, the Water Magicians are most likely True Neutral and Neutral Good. Having no ranks as far as we know, no supreme leader nor any shrines at all, the Water Magicians doesn't seem to have the love for order and organisation that the Fire Magicians have. Adanos himself might be a rather adamant deity, as he doesn't even require his clergy to set up shrines for people to worship him at. (They do have a stand in Khorinis, - it's not a shrine where you can pray at though, it just functions as a place of education).

[rekinu]

yes, Water mages, are kinda in charge of the world....remember that it's their mission to protect the world from destruction and such things...they do not need churches or sth like that.....thay are just working in secret to protect the world....

It's like the hero....the hero faught hardly with Evil, and the dragons, saves whole Khorinis, and probably the world, and for example, mika, or hakon, or lehmar, or such common people, doesn't even know about the threat, or that they wore saved....:D ;)

so, they have to do all they can to protect the world....and probably Fire mages, despite they are very respected, they see that they aren't so important as pople think, and that Water mages do all the hard and great work....that makes them jealous... Fire mages, want everything : the fame, the respect, the power, the knowledge, and the oportunity to SAVE THE WORLD (as WM, do...:D).... so thats why they are so angry with WM....;)

[Grimmwulf]

yes, Water mages, are kinda in charge of the world....remember that it's their mission to protect the world from destruction and such things...they do not need churches or sth like that.....thay are just working in secret to protect the world....

Rather, they work in secret to protect the *balance* of the world. They naturally oppose the destruction of the world, but wouldn't exactly fight for world peace either. Their philosophy is that good and evil should be two perfectly balanced forces.


and probably Fire mages, despite they are very respected, they see that they aren't so important as pople think, and that Water mages do all the hard and great work....that makes them jealous... Fire mages, want everything : the fame, the respect, the power, the knowledge, and the oportunity to SAVE THE WORLD (as WM, do...:D).... so thats why they are so angry with WM....;)

When exactly did the Water Mages save the world? :) They were working on a ritual (which was destined to fail) to destroy the King's barrier, and they sought to learn more about the ancient civilization devoted to their deity, Adanos. While the information Vatras was able to share with you about recharging the amulet was helpful, the Water Magicians have only sought to gain more knowledge and to educate others. What are they up to in Gothic II? Rather than opposing the evil in the Valley of Mines, or the Seekers of Beliar, they spend their time exploring an ancient culture. The Fire Magicians on the other hand have more directly opposed the forces of Beliar, and aided you in the fight against them. They are also widely respected, as you can tell by the way NPC's address you when you are one yourself.

I doubt the Fire magicians *hate* the Water magicians as you say, Pyrokars little outburst might just have been due to his wounded pride when you questioned his orders. He might not like admitting that there are someone more wiser than he is, but that doesn't mean that the fire magicians hate the water magicians. They probably look at them as annoying meddlers at times, and think that they know more than they should.

That's my take on it, at least. :)

[Dez]

Rather, they work in secret to protect the *balance* of the world. They naturally oppose the destruction of the world, but wouldn't exactly fight for world peace either. Their philosophy is that good and evil should be two perfectly balanced forces.



When exactly did the Water Mages save the world? :) They were working on a ritual (which was destined to fail) to destroy the King's barrier, and they sought to learn more about the ancient civilization devoted to their deity, Adanos. While the information Vatras was able to share with you about recharging the amulet was helpful, the Water Magicians have only sought to gain more knowledge and to educate others. What are they up to in Gothic II? Rather than opposing the evil in the Valley of Mines, or the Seekers of Beliar, they spend their time exploring an ancient culture. The Fire Magicians on the other hand have more directly opposed the forces of Beliar, and aided you in the fight against them. They are also widely respected, as you can tell by the way NPC's address you when you are one yourself.

I doubt the Fire magicians *hate* the Water magicians as you say, Pyrokars little outburst might just have been due to his wounded pride when you questioned his orders. He might not like admitting that there are someone more wiser than he is, but that doesn't mean that the fire magicians hate the water magicians. They probably look at them as annoying meddlers at times, and think that they know more than they should.

That's my take on it, at least. :)

Sorry for my lack of absence.I've been quite busy and even now i should be packing my backpack for an upcoming weekend trip with my friends..But gothic discussion is way too intresting :p. A lot of you have described intresting theories.So to sum it all up.

Like said above, The priests of water are keepers of the knowledge and balance.They do not take part of conflicts directly, only when balance is threatened.In their ideology or outlook on life both sides are needed to make this world healthy.If either Beliar or Innos gets too powerfull, the world will become unbalanced.So in a way what both gods, Innos and Beliar do is aufully wrong. They should not have disturbed the balance by giving mortal men powers which they didn't have from the begining!

To a question why don't they take their stand against Beliar.I've thought this a lot myself too.Adanos may have forbbidden water magicians to use force for an attack against beliar minions,(unless it is a selfdefence situation).I think Water magicians see that they obtain these divine powers from Adanos only to fight against unbalance better.Unbalance occurs when either good or bad side gets to powerfull.So if water mages were about to unite their forces with firemages, mostly likely they will win.But what would be the cost of this glorious victory?

Maybe in gothic 3 they will try to end up this eternal conflict once and for all. It could mean that the magic will dissapear from the world forever (as gods won't get involved anymore) but it will be a small price from this victory.

Firemages are annoyed, because they don't get enough support from their water counterparts.They have forgotten that even beliar is needed in this world.Without darkness there would not be light.Yeah it gets confusing if you try to understand the motives of gods.. :D

By the way if they don't have any monestaries, how do they train water novices?

[lichtwicht]

as far as I remember, tells Xardas or Saturas in G1 that water and firemages were still united when they created the barrier, after that they divided.
And I too think that Pyrokar isn't in a bad mood because of the watermages, (besides he's in a bad mood all the time) he just can't stand being questioned by you(us)...
I also think watermages need no monastries, they are wanderers and learn while they explore (the land, themselves...). Wandering about couples, I could imagine, master and student, or so... mfg lichtwicht

[WernerTWC]

as far as I remember, tells Xardas or Saturas in G1 that water and firemages were still united when they created the barrier, after that they divided.
And I too think that Pyrokar isn't in a bad mood because of the watermages, (besides he's in a bad mood all the time) he just can't stand being questioned by you(us)...
I also think watermages need no monastries, they are wanderers and learn while they explore (the land, themselves...). Wandering about couples, I could imagine, master and student, or so... mfg lichtwicht

Hi and §welcome §wink §wink §wink to the forum!!!

Please feel free to post something about yourself in the welcome-thread!!!

:D Yes, Pyrokar is ever in a bad mood, like somebody has stolen his teddybear! :D

[Godcrusher]

hello Dez. Again a wery interesting topic
salut

I think that the paladins respect the waters cuz afterall they are mages and have a huge amount of knowlegde. And i think dez's right the fires are jealues.

[Bartacus]

I agree with Grimmwulf on this one, but like lichtwicht already pointed out, there is sth extra.
In Gothic 1 Saturas refers to the time that fire and water magicians studied together. Unlike lichtwicht thought that this refered just before the creation of the barrier, Im thinking about a time further in the past. In Gothic 2 it is said that 200y ago the paladins were much stronger and more enlightened then the ones today. My guess is that they came forth out of a time that they gained knowledge out of both Innos and Adanos. A time that many of the paladins were members of the circle of water too.

About the addon world I would say that this is even in the times before times. In those days Adanos had created the earth, humans and most of the creatures. Both Innos and Beliar are yealous on Adanos 'ballanced' system. They tried to lure the people to pray for them instead of Adanos an it got out of hand. Adanos took revenge by the great flood on the city.

[DeadlyArrow]

I always liked water mages and disliked firemages. Firemages want to have everything and do nothing - like in G1 they had nice live in Gomez' camp while water mages were WORKING and tryed to save ppl. And again in G2 addon watermages are working but firemages just sit in their temple. The only firemage I like is Molten (arghhh and hero when he is a mage).

[Godcrusher]

I always liked water mages and disliked firemages. Firemages want to have everything and do nothing - like in G1 they had nice live in Gomez' camp while water mages were WORKING and tryed to save ppl. And again in G2 addon watermages are working but firemages just sit in their temple. The only firemage I like is Molten (arghhh and hero when he is a mage).


I agree with you 100%!! They are so arrogant!

[Zaratul]

Agree on this one!

I think that firemages realy are sitting on their buts and do nothing (exept Milten an Pyro when he goes to help U with brouken amulet! ).

But watermages are trying to do something and try to return the balance... they do something...hmmm.... about the mainland I don`t know maybe there are some flovers :p who heard about watermages in colony and know the are studying theire arts of magic on mainland! :D

[DeadlyArrow]

The thing which I hate most about firemages is when you come to Pyrocar and tell him that ppl are disappearing he says "it's not our business". They only read books and don't care about the ppl.

[Godcrusher]

Right. They do not care about anything but themselfs. The only fear they have is losing they're power, and no one dares to face them. They wery remind of Gomez. No wonder Xardas left.

[Dez]

Bringing forth "the people aspect" is a very good point.

In a way Fire magicians restrict themselves from the world and the people who inhabit it inside their monestaries.Watermages want to be part of the people, they want to walk among the people.Not only as judges or mages, but as friends and teachers - so saying as ordinary men! Fire mages allways treat themselves as representatives of Innos in every occasion.They have become quite arrogant and have forgotten the values of humility.

As a sidenote if you donate some gold to Adanos.Vatras says that the gold will be used in charity.But if you donate gold to the church of innos the gold is used only to increasing their own wealth.Servants of innos have wealth, monestaries, statues, but do not exatly share that wealth with anyone else.Also they tend to restrict themselves from the common folk almost totally.

What comes to the paladins.It is a verý intresting thought.I had never happened to think that they could have used magic from adanos. But now that you said, it all makes sense, how they were more powerfull during the old days.Maybe this is part of the reason why beliar is so strong.

It would be quite cool if every mage-candidat has a master who's responsibility is to teach everything about magic..I could imagine them training the upcoming water mages more closely the nature(like in some remote location in the woods or near the huge lake in secret.

The mysteries surrounding these fellows makes them the most interesting mages :).It was a huge disappointment in NOTR that it was impossible to become a watermage.Maybe in gothic III :)

[Grimmwulf]

I tend to take the side of the underdog, so here's what I have to say in defense of the Fire Magicians. :)

Other than instructing, directing and aiding the Paladins, these are some of the other helpful tasks the Fire Magicians does in Gothic II/Der Nacht Des Raben:

- Cleanses the defiled shrines of Innos.
- Brings the corrupt merchant to justice (Salandril).
- Locates and removes the false shares of the Valley of Mines.
- Exorcises the essence of Beliar that takes over innocent people.
- Cleanses the hero of the Seekers corruption.
- Teaches the hero how to recharge the Eye of Innos.
- Sends a Paladin to escort you safely to the Valley of Mines.
- Aids the Paladins in their task to aquire ore for the King, to aid humanity in the battle against the orcs.

Don't tell me the Water Magicians, with the exception of Vatras, does anything helpful to top what the Fire Magicians do in Gothic II/Der Nacht Des Raben. They just have you running errands in Jharkendar to activate portals, find locations of temples and bring them artifacts that has nothing to do other than further their knowledge of Jharkendar.

And also, you know how often the fact that Pyrokar sent you to Vatras for help on recharging the Eye of Innos has been mentioned? Remember that Vatras had to direct you to Pyrokar as well, because the Fire Magicians are the only ones who know how to cleanse you of the seekers corruption. So it goes both ways.

And just as the Water Magicians have Vatras or Myxir in town to tend to the people, the Fire Magicians have Daron there (While he doesn't seem as helpful as Vatras does, he does mingle with the public). The Fire Magicians also have a stand similar to that of Vatras' north of the tavern, where Isgaroth is avaliable to the public at all times, offering free blessings and other services. Other than having one representative in town (plus Isgaroth), both the Fire Magicians *and* the Water Magicians seclude themselves from the public, and the Water Magicians moreso. The Water Magicians not only secludes themselves from the public, but have the whole "Ring of Water" organisation working behind the scenes as well, while the Fire Magicians operates publicly with their Paladins.


Watermages want to be part of the people, they want to walk among the people.Not only as judges or mages, but as friends and teachers - so saying as ordinary men.

While this may be true, you don't really have anything at all to back it up with? In Gothic I all Water Magicians are holed up in the upper part of new camp, where armed guards are denying passage to anyone trying to pass, and kills you on sight if you do. Cronos watches the ore mound and offers services, true, but he's arrogant and on his own.

In Gothic II/Der Nacht Des Raben, the common man has to travel to the other end of the island, and through a magical portal, to have any chance of seeing any Water Magicians besides Vatras.

Vatras is avaliable to the public as a preacher upon a pedestal, but so is Isgaroth of the Fire Magicians. The Fire Magicians also has Daron and a few novices walking around town.

I challenge you to post a screenshot of a single Water Magicians "walking among the people" (other than the hero as a Water Magicians in Gothic I). :)

[Dez]

First of all sorry that this reply took so long :)


I tend to take the side of the underdog, so here's what I have to say in defense of the Fire Magicians. :)

Other than instructing, directing and aiding the Paladins, these are some of the other helpful tasks the Fire Magicians does in Gothic II/Der Nacht Des Raben:

Good that someone defends those poor old geezers :).


- Cleanses the defiled shrines of Innos.
- Brings the corrupt merchant to justice (Salandril).
- Locates and removes the false shares of the Valley of Mines.
- Exorcises the essence of Beliar that takes over innocent people.
- Cleanses the hero of the Seekers corruption.
- Teaches the hero how to recharge the Eye of Innos.
- Sends a Paladin to escort you safely to the Valley of Mines.
- Aids the Paladins in their task to aquire ore for the King, to aid humanity in the battle against the orcs.

What watermagicians do

-Give money towards the poor
-Educate people daily basis
-Heal the sick ones free of charge
-Make the medicines (like the hilda's case).So in a way they also "exorcise the essence of Beliar that takes over innocent people".
-Water magicians are worried about the missing citizens and they try to solve this mystery
-They have also taken care of solving the problem of illegal weapon trade via their ring of water.

-Knowledge is power, therefore their mission to gain information is understandable.As a sidenote If you ask Saturas what they will do while you are moving on. Saturas informs that now their mission is to get the whole hidden world back into it's former glory.Maybe they have plans to establish a new settlement there.Many people could benefit from it.Moreover the journey through the portal is quite safe.In addition it is possible to get in there with a ship/boat.so this would open a whole new way of life to many people inside khorinis.
Also the acient teleportation technology could offer new means to travel there.They could even build new teleports.

-The member of ring of water like is like a plainclothes policeman.Their mission is to serve the law too.While the paladins and the militiamen uphold the law and keep order, ring of water does it secrectly.
-Water magicians teach hero in several skills(runes, mana, potions, wisp etc).
-Saturas orders Lares to help you in the forest.


Don't tell me the Water Magicians, with the exception of Vatras, does anything helpful to top what the Fire Magicians do in Gothic II/Der Nacht Des Raben. They just have you running errands in Jharkendar to activate portals, find locations of temples and bring them artifacts that has nothing to do other than further their knowledge of Jharkendar.


Imo this knowledge could help a lot in the future.If we do not undertsand the history, we can not understand ourselves ;) Also like said above they have plans to re-establish Jharkendar.
With the same Militia will find the hiding place of pirates and bandits. I'm afraid that our pirate friends are soon to be arrested :/, but the ones who brake the law must be dealt with and the justice must be done.


And also, you know how often the fact that Pyrokar sent you to Vatras for help on recharging the Eye of Innos has been mentioned? Remember that Vatras had to direct you to Pyrokar as well, because the Fire Magicians are the only ones who know how to cleanse you of the seekers corruption. So it goes both ways

Yes you are correct.However my point was never to claim that water magicians could have solved the situation all by themselves.I was trying to point out the fact that even how "allpowerfull" those old geezers at the monestary want to look like, they still need some help from their water counterparts in difficult tasks. :)


And just as the Water Magicians have Vatras or Myxir in town to tend to the people, the Fire Magicians have Daron there (While he doesn't seem as helpful as Vatras does, he does mingle with the public). The Fire Magicians also have a stand similar to that of Vatras' north of the tavern, where Isgaroth is avaliable to the public at all times, offering free blessings and other services. Other than having one representative in town (plus Isgaroth), both the Fire Magicians *and* the Water Magicians seclude themselves from the public, and the Water Magicians moreso. The Water Magicians not only secludes themselves from the public, but have the whole "Ring of Water" organisation working behind the scenes as well, while the Fire Magicians operates publicly with their Paladins.

Water magicians actully have two members there myxir and vatras.In addition to that nobody has forbidden common folk to travel to the addon world.There has never been any rule, that forbids people to meet them.But go and knock the doors of the monestary...
What comes to this secret order, like said above in my opinion this protection of secrecy is not harming anyone besides the bandits and criminals.Also while the Fire magicians are very sensive to the proper faith, vatras never treats you worse even if you don't belong to the church.


While this may be true, you don't really have anything at all to back it up with? In Gothic I all Water Magicians are holed up in the upper part of new camp, where armed guards are denying passage to anyone trying to pass, and kills you on sight if you do. Cronos watches the ore mound and offers services, true, but he's arrogant and on his own.


While this may be the case in the first gothic.The whole situation was a lot different back then.They were in the middle of criminals for god's sake.
As far as i can recall in any case it was much harder to get an audience with firemages.While Cronos was arrogant he was still there everytime for everyone.If you did not have proper authorization you had no chance to talk the firemages.

Challenge accepted! All i need now is to find the summon codes for the water magicians :D

But seriously talking: yea I maybe exaggerated a bit how they walk among the people :)