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From the GDC video it is clear that only one opponent can attack at a time.
I just can't understand why they are making the same mistake they made in gothic3.
It is a horrible idea that was complained about in gothic 3. So why do it again in risen?
If only 1 opponent can attack at a time there's no difference between fighting 10 opponents or 1 opponent, only time, but not difficulty.
From what i understand PB is still working on the fighting system, so i think they can still change it.
Please express your opinion as it might change PB's opinion regarding this issue.
well yeah as i said in the other thread, that does look unrealistic, but trying to attack multiple oponents isn't really realistic either as you don't stand a chance in RL. So i'm not really sure about this thing. Would be cool maybe if you could fight 2,3 enemies at once, but i don't really think that's so easy to make, even though some thinks apperantly that it is.
For example, how to you block 3 guys at the same time, if they all try to hit you at once? Especially if you are surrounded by them.
And how do you really hit 3 guys with one shot, or how do you hit one while blocking other two? I think this thing is far more complex then some of you think.
So to allow that several enemies attacks you at once, combat system should be probably much, much more complicated. And in any case, you would end up death as soon as you attacked more then 2 guys, no matter how strong you are, if it was atleast a bit realistic.
So i'm not really sure what would be the best way. If we allow multiple enemies at once, game might be to strong, if not, it will look somewhat odd.
It's not a real life simulator, and even in real life it is possible to take multiply opponents if your weapon is more advanced and you know more about fighting.
If you have a sword and heavy armor and you fight 3 guys with sticks you might beat them.
It's not realistic that all your enemies will stand and watch while you kill one of them.
Also it ruins the experience because as i said fighting 1 opponent or 10 won't make much different in difficulty, only in the time it takes you.
To answer your question:
You don't hit everyone with 1 hit, you hit 1 or 2 of them if they're really close. I really don't get your logic in this.
They don't have to change much about the combat system, you shouldn't be able to block 3 attacks, only 1. so if 3 attacks happen in the same time you get hit.
Think of this like a real fight, if you are facing 3 opponents you will most likely try to beat them one by one, but because they outbumber you they will attack all together as it gives them an advantage.
My suggestion is to make a maximum number of opponents that can attack you.
But this number should be 3 and not 1. the others should circle around you.
Because even in a real fight more than 3 opponents can't really hit you in the same time because they are blocking eachother.
Well i just wanted to say that if 3 of them goes and tries to hit you in the same time, you have to somehow block all 3 of them.
In any case, it makes things much more complicated, but i'm not saying it couldn't work.
Limiting to 3, maybe it's not bad idea really. As i already said, it is true that it does look odd and unrealistic that others just wait untill first guy is finished.
I'd wait for another video to be sure about what the fighting system will be like and then start the discussing about it.
I thought PBs said this fighting system has nothing to do with the one they're going to use so you may be arguing for nothing.
Y but the AI reaction might not be changed.
They might mean animations and keys when they say "fighting system"
sorry if i gave that impression, but i wasn't arguing at all. It's just that i'm not really sure which would be the best. Maybe the idea with max 3 enemies at once would be the best...
attacking multiple opponents seems to be realistic, depends on your skill if you are going to win the fight.
I hope, that PB does not lock the player into a fight with only one enemy, but lets us attack and fight more freely.
This seems very realistic to me, in real life, I can choose to fight a whole group of people, usually I would use this tactic,
I'd go for the leader/ boss, and beat the living s... out of him watching my back carefully, going to and fro to, dodging left and right, avoid hits from the other group members. The other group members usually stay a bit back, so that helps managing and when the boss is dealt with, the others run!
;)
Well dunno, i still belive if they are atleast a bit experience fighters, you usually don't stand a chance against 3 or more. It just isn't realistic do go on one and avoid kicks from other 2 in the process, if they are atelast so-so experienced, which in Risen i belive they will be. Sure in movies it looks easy, but in real life, i don't think it's really that easy to avoid getting kicked from all directions. I could only see this if you knew special martial arts, so that you could hurt really badly with first kick already but here we have knights and paladins like warrriors, not ninjas. :P
Since you like pointing real life... In RL when you sensed that you might get attacked by more that you can handle, would you not consider having some backup?
In Risen or any other game for that matter, you would hire henchmen, if you didn't already have some companions (e.g. like in NWN).
A tr00 game fighting implementation would be a pure collision based model, which means damage to the player would be calculated with the force applied, type of armor/weapon and the point of contact.
Another rule would be that the weapon properly recoils, instead of going through the player.
One can then only imagine, swinging a two hander in the middle of a bunch of foes. :cool:
If your weapon is more advanced and you are better at fighting it is possible to win 3v1.
An extreme example is what i said with 3 men with sticks fighting a man with heavy armor and sword.
But as i already said it's not really a real life simulation, if it was there shouldn't be any magic in Risen :)
In risen they are not trying to create a real life simulation but they are trying to keep it logical and challenging and this is why i think multiply enemies should be able to attack together (3 max should be fine :D).
RobinHood 13.
28.03.2009, 14:39
In Gothic 2 they could attack you several at a time, and I think that worked out quite well.
Fighting 2 enemies or more at once suddenly made it alot more difficult, and it was here you really needed your skills.
Trick is to always move, don't let em surround you, but this would be nearly impossible, if you could only block ony one opponent at once, so blocking needs to apply for all enemies attacking.
Make a max of 3 players attacking you at once (could be difficulty dependent like 1.70) seems like a good idea, but this should also be between npcs, as in 1.70 npcs still only fight in duels no matter how many have surrounded one foe. Badside is that 2 rebels that would have no prob taking a orc, gets owned by him cause they can only attack one at a time.
Another thing, direction of attack should be direction you are standing, not targeted npc. I don't like the lock on, cause suddenly he can lock on to one you don't wanna attack. Could be alternative, but here movement would be even more vital cause a fast moving/little target will now be more difficult to hit, which is more realistic.
Getting locked on to one opponent is the problem, that takes away the flexibility and possible reactions to the attacked group.
I wish this could be solved and would be fun if the human player could use more tactics of his/her own. ;)
I agree with multiple attack, but there is a problem, since gothic 3 when the enemies hit the hero he remains somewhat stunned and unable to complete the action he was doing; if this thing remains, and adding multiple attack from the opponents, you are going to die even with the strongest armor at the maximum lvl, cause 3 guys continuosly hitting you are going to make every action impossible; if this freaky thing of being stunned by attacks even in the middle of an action is removed, the i'll vouch for multiple attacks too (somewhat like the firsts gothics)§wink
Did you see that you can kick your enemies nice, eh? :D
i don't mean to over-post, just to increase the chance that these ideas can be noticed by pb ...
let it be our own choice in the start menu to decide whether we can fight multipil opponentes simultaneously, better with how many of them.
i.e.
if we choose easy difficulty, just one opponent at a time;
if we choose medium difficulty, perhaps one or two, depending on the situation;
while in the hard mode, two or three;
don't let the hero run faster than the other NPCs and monsters, there is far less excitement in this way.
let our opponents chase the hero for longer time.
if we kill the leader of a group of enemies, the minors should chase us even longer than usual.
Argenguy
29.03.2009, 10:43
It's true that you can't fight multiple enemies with a one-handed weapon, but with a spear or a 2 handed sword, that's another story. Sweeping blows keep the enemies at bay, smaller weapons are ideal for dueling, and one hander plus shield= the best against archers.
i don't mean to over-post, just to increase the chance that these ideas can be noticed by pb ...
let it be our own choice in the start menu to decide whether we can fight multipil opponentes simultaneously, better with how many of them.
i.e.
if we choose easy difficulty, just one opponent at a time;
if we choose medium difficulty, perhaps one or two, depending on the situation;
while in the hard mode, two or three;
don't let the hero run faster than the other NPCs and monsters, there is far less excitement in this way.
let our opponents chase the hero for longer time.
if we kill the leader of a group of enemies, the minors should chase us even longer than usual.
I think it's a great idea. But there are no buts :D
Great idea, i really hope the pbs read this thread and change some things according to it (even the slightest change towards this direction is good).
I would also like to add that the difficulty you picked when you started a new game should be permanent for that game.
No thanks I really hope there won't be a way to change the difficulty of the game.
No thanks I really hope there won't be a way to change the difficulty of the game.
Wait you want only 1 difficulty? you do understand this will never happen right?
I would like that too, but i know it's very unlikely to happen.
Why?I don't remember an option in G1 or 2 for the difficulty why should Risen have one?
bajuk666
29.03.2009, 15:05
they can attack more than one at the time. In the seconde video you can see that at the end two or three NPC attack at the same time.
I think it's a great idea. But there are no buts :D
Great idea, i really hope the pbs read this thread and change some things according to it (even the slightest change towards this direction is good).
I would also like to add that the difficulty you picked when you started a new game should be permanent for that game.
thank you for the support. :)
i really hope pb can realize this fact that many of us want the multiple fights.
Pascal(Xardas)
29.03.2009, 18:07
From the GDC video it is clear that only one opponent can attack at a time.
I just can't understand why they are making the same mistake they made in gothic3.
It is a horrible idea that was complained about in gothic 3. So why do it again in risen?
If only 1 opponent can attack at a time there's no difference between fighting 10 opponents or 1 opponent, only time, but not difficulty.
From what i understand PB is still working on the fighting system, so i think they can still change it.
Please express your opinion as it might change PB's opinion regarding this issue.
They said it´s not the final fight system, not even the fight-moves are final, so I think there`ll be some changes till its release. Also a child puts its hands on a warm stove plate only one time, after that, it learned. I think so does PB, too. ;)
Demonium
29.03.2009, 18:09
thank you for the support. :)
i really hope pb can realize this fact that many of us want the multiple fights.
But there will be multiple fights...Just look at the end of the Italian ingame video...It shows 3 people attacking the hero at the same time...
Argenguy
29.03.2009, 19:50
Wait you want only 1 difficulty? you do understand this will never happen right?
I would like that too, but i know it's very unlikely to happen.
If more difficulty means more hardness and HPs for the NPCs, then no thanks? But if more difficulty means NPCs with a better and more aggressive combat AI, then yes.
I should sugggest 3 difficulties:
Easy: enemies attack one at the same time, they are less aggressive and have 25% less hitpoints.
Medium/normal: enemies attack in groups of 2 or 3 at the same time, the got normal HP and moderate aggressiveness.
Hard: enemies attack in groups of 5 or more (depending on the situation), they are more aggressive (specially on duels) and have 25% more hitpoints.
It's similar to the Iab's one.
Danutz_plusplus
29.03.2009, 20:33
I also prefer having just one difficulty. I never know which one to choose when playing a game if all difficulties are available from the start. I usually choose medium, and it's too easy, then hard and it's too hard.
But there will be multiple fights...Just look at the end of the Italian ingame video...It shows 3 people attacking the hero at the same time...
but such attacks only happen occasionally - i still regard them as 'program seams' and the program is not intend to do so.
(i hope you are right anyway, really.)
If more difficulty means more hardness and HPs for the NPCs, then no thanks? But if more difficulty means NPCs with a better and more aggressive combat AI, then yes.
strongly agreed.
Guys, some of the characters in the first 2 gothics were god like in fighting, they had really good skill when blocking and attacking. And still there was no limit of NPCs that could attack you at the same time. That was incredibly hard and it was worth it.
Well already posted this in another thread, but this is threa about figthing so:
Some of you guys said that in some vids, the hero fights very strange, like a noob so to speak.
Well, it was the same at start in g1 too. You didn't no how to fight god, so you hit once and couldn't just hit right away, and overall, you were very clumsy. But when you learned one or two handed sword figting, you got new moves, new animations and overall hero looked much better and effective when fighting.
now remember that PB said that something similar should be in risen too. AT first, you will be clumsy and have very bad fighting moves (like in the vids), but later on when you learn how to fight better, you will have better moves, better animations, wil hit harder and overall get more effective.
If so, i think the way you fight in the vids is pefectly ok. Maybe PB can comfirm or deny this?
Well already posted this in another thread, but this is threa about figthing so:
Some of you guys said that in some vids, the hero fights very strange, like a noob so to speak.
Well, it was the same at start in g1 too. You didn't no how to fight god, so you hit once and couldn't just hit right away, and overall, you were very clumsy. But when you learned one or two handed sword figting, you got new moves, new animations and overall hero looked much better and effective when fighting.
now remember that PB said that something similar should be in risen too. AT first, you will be clumsy and have very bad fighting moves (like in the vids), but later on when you learn how to fight better, you will have better moves, better animations, wil hit harder and overall get more effective.
If so, i think the way you fight in the vids is pefectly ok. Maybe PB can comfirm or deny this?
The problem was that it was a SINGLE move in the videos, but Quy clered that up. :)
well you didn't like have lots of moves in start of g1 either, but yeah, Quy cleared that out. :)
Damn missed the answers train yet again.
I am still interested on the assortment of attacks moves and how does one get them.
Oblivion is superior in this aspect. Block, block, whip, block, powerblow, pain, pain, block... Kinda reminds me of the good ol' Prince of Persia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Persia_(1989_video_game)). The 386 one. Most of you were just born around that time. :)
Damn missed the answers train yet again.
I am still interested on the assortment of attacks moves and how does one get them.
Oblivion is superior in this aspect. Block, block, whip, block, powerblow, pain, pain, block... Kinda reminds me of the good ol' Prince of Persia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_of_Persia_(1989_video_game)). The 386 one. Most of you were just born around that time. :)
I remember playing that on a 586 somewhere in '98 (i was 8 years old), along with DOOM, Wolfenstein, dozens of Apogee games, OMF, Jazz Jackrabit and those games wit a squirell that I don;t remember the name etc.... :DAh, good ol' times.:) And I still enjoy playing those, especially the old adventures for which I didn;t have enough mind back then. I still have that comp, too bad the hdd battery ran out:(
But going back to the attacks, I would like something complex, even more ecomplex than g2.
TheDoctor
30.03.2009, 21:39
Enemies that multiply, eh?
catalinux
30.03.2009, 22:21
I remember playing that on a 586 somewhere in '98 (i was 8 years old), along with DOOM, Wolfenstein, dozens of Apogee games, OMF, Jazz Jackrabit and those games wit a squirell that I don;t remember the name etc.... :DAh, good ol' times.:) And I still enjoy playing those, especially the old adventures for which I didn;t have enough mind back then. I still have that comp, too bad the hdd battery ran out:(
You can play these games on any modern PC using DosBox (http://www.dosbox.com/) ;)
I presume you are using Windows. For Windows you can also try the portable version at portableapps.com (http://portableapps.com/apps/games/dosbox_portable)
Enemies that multiply, eh?
Laughing at spelling mistakes makes you cool :)
Well, I think it would be good, if the player can choose in which mode he will play the game.
For novices of a game alternatively beginners of playing role playing games in general it would be quite easy to learn how to play and not to refuse, to fight only one enemy at the moment.
When the person can play the game very well after a time and for the players playing RPGs already very good is the option to fight against more than one person in time.
Friendly Greetings,
Tar
And don't forget, some people play only on occasion... because they have other things to do, like a JOB!
ismarhadzia
09.04.2009, 06:53
They could make this more realistic.
If you fight with multiple enemies you could disable one for few sec. and you fight others. When they go down on health they could slow their movements and make the whole fight bit interesting by allow additional enemies to join the fight.
Make more complicated battles with progress of your fighting levels or if you lear certain/new skill.
But then what happens with ranged wepons or magick attacks?
steven7lin
07.05.2009, 06:51
I agree with multiple attack, but there is a problem, since gothic 3 when the enemies hit the hero he remains somewhat stunned and unable to complete the action he was doing; if this thing remains, and adding multiple attack from the opponents, you are going to die even with the strongest armor at the maximum lvl, cause 3 guys continuosly hitting you are going to make every action impossible; if this freaky thing of being stunned by attacks even in the middle of an action is removed, the i'll vouch for multiple attacks too (somewhat like the firsts gothics)§wink
m...I haven't played gothic series, but the above description shows some combat setting weakness of gothic 3.
since a high level warrior should be able to ignore minor damages that some weak NPCs hit on him/her.
the same, a high level mage also should be able to ignore damages to continue his/her spell casting. :rolleyes:
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