ELEX Discussion. Suggestions.

[Maladiq]

It is certain that PB is in the preproduction of their next game. We don't know if it will be Risen 4, Gothic 5, or something totally different, and I really don't care right now. My main concern is that they deliver a wonderful product, regardless of its nature. I'll just call it RPBx.

My suggestion for them is to ditch the Genome engine and get another one. Unreal Engine 4 should do the job. Not only it is pretty damn cheap (19$ per month + 5% of the profits should be cheaper than having an entire programmer team with licensed tools struggling to keep alive an engine, or develop it from 0), it is really good looking (cutscene-like ingame graphics), amazingly optimized, and supports all the necessary interactions for delivering a memorable product.

I suggest you watch this video in its entirety: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hwhH7upYFE

As you can see, not only levels can be easily built, but it offers a lot of possibilities for in-game interactions. You get "intelligent" materials, which adapt themselves to surrounding situations (ice melting, wood burning, gears moving, landscape changing), and most of these don't even need programming, since the templates are already coded in the material attributes. Less programmers means more budget for the others.

And having great visuals will guarantee sales, even if the game is crap.

Oh, and let's remember how this opens the doors for easy modding.

IMO, getting a powerful engine will land them in the big leagues.

[SlamDunk]

I'm sure PB already have decided to either go the proprietary or the licensing route. It all comes down to what they want to achieve with the next game, so it's not just "Hey, since everyone and their mother loves UE4 we should get it too.". I've got an inkling, though, that a few of the Piranhas have been hard at work developing the groundwork for a new and shiny DX11 engine of their own.

As for PB's next game, which I assume will be another RPG and since it most probably will be released for PC, PS4 and XBO, I really hope (and suggest) that they've taken on the draw distance issue and tackled it for good, this time. Draw and level-of-detail distance all the way into the horizon would be a huge boost for the all-important immersion level.

[Maladiq]

As I said, UE4 is more than eye candy. Its developer tools are quite amazing and could add a great deal to the gameplay with minimum effort. And it also solves the distance draw :p

On a different subject, what I expect from their next game is actual free exploring. Nothing scripted, just free swimming, diving, climbing, and why not, flying. Gimme that, and also lots of interactions: cutting trees, digging holes, building structures, cooking, crafting, etc. I want to climb the trees, to intercept boats, steal horses and so on. Only then would a PB game stand a chance in today's market. This isn't 2001 anymore.

[warstrike]

Since everybody here wants something new ,they could try creating a boardgame /mmo / a game of thrones game /survival type .

But most importantly , are you sure they plan another game??

[Zocky]

well yeah, udk/unreal 4 doesn't just provide you far better visuals, it also is gives you tons of various tricks to optimize your game (artist making shaders himselfs with simple node based system), instanced materials, and tons of other tricks.

It also makes it much easier to work with, which means you reduce time to create scene a great deal. I worked already a little with unreal engine 4 myself, and similar like unity, it really cuts your time a lot, while with custom engines, you usually have to deal with all sorts of things, and not being able to do stuff that you could in unreal, unity or such.

So basically, you can have better visual in less time, because of good tools. It's not all jut about how good artists are, tools are VERY important aswell.

[Maladiq]

But most importantly , are you sure they plan another game??

Since I doubt they are going to just disband Piranha Bytes, of course they are :p Pre-prod always starts a couple of months early of the release of their actual project. Maybe even years. Paying people for idle sitting is a waste of money, so as soon as they are finished with their jobs, they start working on a new project. For example as Risen 3 is coming closer and closer to completion, the game designers have less and less work to do and begin planning their next one and pitching it to the publisher. The concept artists are the people who finish their work earliest, so they get busy drawing for multiple game ideas, (i.e. Risen 4, Gothic 5, a new racing game etc.), which will be pitched to the publisher, and they will choose one.

Then come the story writers, who start working on the new project, then the 3D artist and programmers, and finally the people responsible for implementing the story, the scripters.

Considering we are 3 months from release of Risen 3, I would say the concept artists, game designers and the story writers are pretty busy with their new project.

Is it confirmed that there will not be a Risen 4? Is it because they want to make a new Gothic, because they want to do something new, or because their contract with DS was not renewed? (after Risen 1 they signed with DS for two more projects)

[rotator]

There is no sense in ditching the Genome engine. Piranha Bytes is one of those few developer studios, who were able to create a complex RPG engine from scratch. Not even CD Projekt Red could achieve that in the beginning. Their games look distinctive and not "yet another UE3 game with those stock bump maps".

The engine of Risen 2, while not state-of-the-art, is pretty advanced in technical terms. Risen 3 should be even better. Their landscapes look awesome, very nice lighting and weather effects. What really lacking is the characters: faces and animations are pretty low standard. Recently I've replayed Gothic 1 and the faces looked like a thousand times better than the ones in the Risen games. And animations are sometimes laughable, too much fast, wide movements.

What they really need to ditch is Deep Silver. Worst. Marketing. Ever.

[Maladiq]

You serious? Risen3 is dx9, it looks worst than Crysis ever did, and they struggled since 2007 to implement swimming and diving.

[rotator]

Well, they could implement swimming and diving back in 2000, so I'm pretty sure there was no technical reason for not doing that, but rather some strange design choice.

For me style > realism, I'd choose Risen's graphics over Crysis anytime. §wink

[Forward]

I just hope Bjorn wouldn't develop another gothic §cry
my heart goes out with the original PB members.

[Maladiq]

I just hope Bjorn wouldn't develop another gothic §cry
my heart goes out with the original PB members.

You do realize that Bjoern was part of the team since Gothic 1, right? He is an original PB member :p

[Roleplayer]

You do realize that Bjoern was part of the team since Gothic 1, right? He is an original PB member :p

But he is not one of the PB creators and he is not one of the people who actually created the idea of Gothic and it's full game concept. He is not "real" PB.

The last was Mike Hoge and he left PB some time ago, so there are no longer any real PB members at the team. In fact, Risen 1 was created mostly by Hoge concept, and Risen 2 was created by Bjorn concept, so is Risen 3 as well. PB and its original style of games has been ruined by Bjorn hands.

[warstrike]

The last was Mike Hoge and he left PB some time ago, so there are no longer any real PB members at the team. In fact, Risen 1 was created mostly by Hoge concept, and Risen 2 was created by Bjorn concept, so is Risen 3 as well. PB and its original style of games has been ruined by Bjorn hands.

Doesn't matter . It seems to me that they got lucky with Gothic 1 and Gothic 2. Since G3 they started to mess up things ,never got it right as they did when they first started ....seems to me just a lucky shot :-)

[Forward]

Doesn't matter . It seems to me that they got lucky with Gothic 1 and Gothic 2. Since G3 they started to mess up things ,never got it right as they did when they first started ....seems to me just a lucky shot :-)

luck or not, gothic 1 is masterpiece. and Maladiq, bjoern joined the team at the end of gothic 1 development.

[Maladiq]

luck or not, gothic 1 is masterpiece. and Maladiq, bjoern joined the team at the end of gothic 1 development.

Not really. He joined in 1999, the game was released in 2001, near its end. The story of G1 was, iirc, completed just about 6 months before its release. It was a long process of trial and error. imo bjoern is as piranha as it gets.

[Forward]

Not really. He joined in 1999, the game was released in 2001, near its end. The story of G1 was, iirc, completed just about 6 months before its release. It was a long process of trial and error. imo bjoern is as piranha as it gets.

its over man... the one moved the wheels are not there anymore.

[warstrike]

luck or not, gothic 1 is masterpiece

Yes,it is,no doubt.

Unfortunately we won't see such games any time soon i'm afraid

[Maladiq]

its over man... the one moved the wheels are not there anymore.

Mike was indeed a great part of PB being PB. But nevertheless, Bjoern is a a Piranha.

[rotator]

The last was Mike Hoge and he left PB some time ago, so there are no longer any real PB members at the team. In fact, Risen 1 was created mostly by Hoge concept, and Risen 2 was created by Bjorn concept, so is Risen 3 as well. PB and its original style of games has been ruined by Bjorn hands.

Any info/rumors on Mike Hoge's departure? Reason, when and where did he go, etc? He was a very passionate developer/designer and certainly the head of Piranha Bytes (and the Gothic nameless hero :p) for years.

[Ravenhearth]

Recently I read an old interview with Mike Hoge about Risen 2. He was still in the team back then. But he said that he had enough of fantasy games iirc.

[Roleplayer]

Bjoern is a a Piranha.

http://replygif.net/i/217.gif

This "Piranha" ruined all PB traditions with Risen 2 and continues to do it with Risen 3.


Any info/rumors on Mike Hoge's departure? Reason, when and where did he go, etc?
I heard it from elind. She is the second most reliable source after PB.

[Ravenhearth]

Although Björn was the project manager for Risen 2 and 3, he is not the only gamedesigner or storywriter at PB, and Mike Hoge worked on Risen 2, too. It's not Björns fault alone that Risen 2 wasn't that good and it isn't his fault alone that Risen 3 won't be as good as the old games (as I suppose).

[Maladiq]

Any info/rumors on Mike Hoge's departure? Reason, when and where did he go, etc? He was a very passionate developer/designer and certainly the head of Piranha Bytes (and the Gothic nameless hero :p) for years.




I heard it from elind. She is the second most reliable source after PB.
True that. Also, based on the fact that Harry didn't answer my question concerning Mike, if he still is on board, that makes it basically official.





This "Piranha" ruined all PB traditions with Risen 2 and continues to do it with Risen 3.


Although Björn was the project manager for Risen 2 and 3, he is not the only gamedesigner or storywriter at PB, and Mike Hoge worked on Risen 2, too. It's not Björns fault alone that Risen 2 wasn't that good and it isn't his fault alone that Risen 3 won't be as good as the old games (as I suppose).

As I said before, game designer work on a couple of different ideas, pitch them to the publisher, and they decide on one of them. Since Mike took a step back after Risen 1, I suspect that Risen 2 was Bjoern't pitch and he is entirely responsible for the disaster. I guess Mike pitched a better idea, which kept the basic points of Risen 1, and when he got rejected for an inferior project, he only stayed as long as he was contractually obligated, and left immediately after the game design work was done for Risen 2. So by the time it was launched, he was far far away.

Anyway, as Project Manager, Bjoern had the power to overrule any idea and suggestion, so I guess everything is directly imputable to him.

But Bjoern is one of the "originals", and even though we didn't like the finished product, that cannot be changed.

[Andante]

Things I want: 1)A new graphics engine 2) A new franchise (not another Gothic) 3) A fully open world (no invisible barriers, no loading zones, gothic 2 size)
4) medieval style (axes, bows, swords,magic)
5) free swimming/climbing
6) an emphasis to exploration 7) tree climbing to see where you are (like Bilbo does in the hobbit movie) and the ability to use a bow from up there 8) dynamic weather (from sunny to cloudy in real time) 9) an immersive fighting system based on the players skill 10) all actions performed ingame (even inventory search)
11) a town with no loading when you enter
12) good and simple storyline

[Dino]

IMO, getting a powerful engine will land them in the big leagues.


this

[The Ore Baron]

Didn't we already have a thread like this?

I, for one, don't really care about the engine, they could reuse the one they used in the original Gothic, I don't really care about melting ice or realistic grass physics simulation. Me does not equal the rest of the populace, of course, so I do agree that keeping up with the latest technological developments is a good way to stay relevant in the business.

As for the game itself, I would really like Gothic V set after Forsaken Gods, Arcania and Fall of Setarrif - I just hate it when series has non-canon games that just awkwadly remain there, despite everyone trying to wish them out of existance.

Here's my thoughts on the future of the Gothic series (my first post on WoG, actually). I marked the plot and new world ideas in bold.
First and foremost, PB themselves have expressed wishes to move away from fantasy-themed settings of sword and sorcery. This is solely their decision, and if they choose to start developing a sci-fi game, I don't think fans will have any sort of right to be angry.

However, our opinions concerning the actual future of the Gothic series should be noted and listened to, even if the ultimate decision will be made without heeding the advice of fans. Problem is, the community does not seem to reach a consensus as to what exactly they would all want to see. Until this happens, our mixed opinions and inner fighting will only add to the further confusion of PB.

Now, that being said, on to the topic at hand:

I, for one, believe that Gothic 5 should follow the events of Forsaken Gods, Arcania and Fall of Setarrif. I understand why some players don't want to consider them canon Gothic games and I am not saying these additions to the series were quality products. What I am saying, however, is that returning the series to an earlier stage, creating new, separate sequels next to already existing ones, rewriting the stories and creating different timelines will only make things worse in the long run.

Think about it: even if PB creates a new Gothic game and it becomes a huge success, the series will never shake the gloomy shadow of FG, Arcania and FoS - the family outcasts, the series rejects. These games will not stop existing or being available to play. Future fans will be coming up with all sorts of weird theories as to how the non-canon games could actually be canon. Heck, FG, Arcania and FoS will still be mentioned in every article, document and wiki page concerning the series, only this time, they will all have an annoying note next to them, marking them out as something to be ignored. This aesthetic mess of having non-canon games in the series is exactly what I would like PB to avoid in the future.

And when you really think about it... the non-PB games weren't so bad, really. Forsaken Gods has a rather well-put story, nicely connecting Gothic 3 with Arcania. Frankly, I really liked the conflict between Gorn and Thorus, the return of old artifacts from earlier games and the general feeling of an actually continued story of Gothic. Sure, several side-quests were silly, but apart from that, I really can't say I have much problem with Forsaken Gods, especially after enhancing the add-on with the community patch. Arcania, while having a completely un-Gothic feeling to it, managed to present itself as a rather solid (even if not an innovative) game by itself, featuring a duller plot, fetching quests and linear level progression, yet managing to extend the lore and the world of Gothic without messing it up too much. Fall of Setarrif was just a conclusion to that.

Really now, what exactly has changed? The new games did not introduce elven or dwarven races, did not directly contradict earlier events and left more than enough space for future works. If PB were to develop a new Gothic game, all they'd have to do would be coming up with some retcon to fix the few inconsistencies between the games and simply build on top.

My idea for the plot of Gothic 5 would be something like this: Rhobar III returns as the elderly hero of the first games, now the king of Myrtana. The nameless hero of Feshyr becomes the newest addition to the circle of king's friend-advisers (Diego, Milten, Lester, Gorn and others), having proved himself in Arcania and FoS. Both of these characters are featured as quest-giving NPCs. A new hero is presented and the players are swept into a new adventure, involving the continued conquest campaigns of Rhobar III further into the world of Gothic, perhaps featuring a new, unexplored continent with new mysteries and dangers. Imagine being a knight in the the Myrtanian army, involved in colonial operations, mapping the new continent, fighting the natives, exploring old ruins... I think that would be interesting and would serve well for a sequel.

Okay, I've already said too much for my first post on these forums, so I'll just wrap it up real quick:
a) disregarding the non-PB games as non-canon and pushing PB to create surrogates for them would lead to unnecessary mess and confusion in the long-term future;
b) non-PB games are not as bad a some of you seem to think and can be easily integrated into the continuity of Gothic series;
c) the new Gothic game could feature a new hero and have the previous protagonists serving non-playable roles in the game - this would nicely mark the return of PB to the steering wheel of Gothic series and finally let us all to put the mistakes and misfortunes of the past to rest.

As far as gameplay changes go, I'd like to see quicker combat - enemies falling in three or four hits, not thirty. Of course, the main character should also become more vulnerable, which would, in turn, mean relying on shield and evasive moves a lot more, while also making health potions valuable and a worthwhile investment when deciding where to spend the very limited amount of money game provides the player with.

Basically, I would prefer a classic PB game with Dark Souls style of fighting :D

[Morgannin09]

Didn't we already have a thread like this?

I, for one, don't really care about the engine, they could reuse the one they used in the original Gothic, I don't really care about melting ice or realistic grass physics simulation. Me does not equal the rest of the populace, of course, so I do agree that keeping up with the latest technological developments is a good way to stay relevant in the business.


The big reason for the desire for an improved engine is because of how limited the gameplay of Risen 2 and, inevitably, Risen 3 will be as a result of it. The scope of their vision is beyond what their engine can provide, and this is why we get levels divided by loading screens, and a pirate game where you don't even get to control your own ship, among other problems. We just want them to be able to create a fulfilling game that isn't chopped in bite sized pieces that lead us down a series of tube-like pathways.

[Ravenhearth]

All those things are definitely NOT the engine's fault. The genome engine is capable of handling a huge open world without loading screens (in fact, the world of Risen 2 is one single world and traveling with the ship works like teleporting in Risen 1; the were loading screens, too). The fact that Risen 2 and 3 doesn't have a really open world was a design decision and perhaps also was due to the old consoles. But the genome engine itself is powerful enough and could lay the foundation for an open world game, especially on the next gen consoles and the pc. And even if it weren't, Piranha Bytes could enhance and improve their engine. An engine is not an solid, unchangeable piece of software. There is absolutely no need for an completely new engine.

[Maladiq]

But the genome engine itself is powerful enough and could lay the foundation for an open world game, especially on the next gen consoles and the pc.

No. No it is not.

[Ravenhearth]

Do you have any evidence for your claim?

[Morgannin09]

All those things are definitely NOT the engine's fault. The genome engine is capable of handling a huge open world without loading screens (in fact, the world of Risen 2 is one single world and traveling with the ship works like teleporting in Risen 1; the were loading screens, too).

I'll stop you there and say a big fat NO. There is no single world in Risen 2. You cannot go from one landmass to another without a loading screen. They aren't even loaded at the same time, which is WHY we get a loading screen, because it's LOADING the island you're travelling to. Look outside at the ocean, look for any other islands or landmasses in the distance. You won't see any, because they aren't loaded. Try fast travelling to one of the other islands through the map, and it won't work, because you first have to travel there by ship, so that the game will load the other island. (Or at least I don't think you can. Either way, it takes more to load another island than it takes to teleport from the pirate camp to DiFuego's outpost, both on Tacarigua.)
As for why Risen had loading screens after teleporting, it's because while the game has the full landmass loaded, it doesn't have it fully rendered at all times. Certain objects like barrels and vegetation, as well as monsters and scripts, all get loaded as you travel through the map. The landscape was there, but the details were not. You could run from one end of the island to the other without a loading screen, because (as long as your computer was powerful enough), it could simply load the finer details as you went along, and unload the stuff you wandered too far away from. Teleporting to a faraway location means it has to render a whole bunch of these details at once. They give a loading screen for this, because Gothic 3 didn't have loading screens for teleporting, and so the game would freeze up on one frame as it rendered everything at your destination. This annoyed a lot of people because they thought the game was freezing on them, and so PB, I'm assuming, added loading screens in Risen just so people wouldn't mistakenly believe that the game froze when they teleported.

[Maladiq]

Do you have any evidence for your claim?

The lighting/shadow system is crap, the number of triangles is limited, so is the draw distance, it needs heavy programming just to implement a different camera type, it needs heavy programming to introduce swimming and diving.

It needs REALLY HEAVY PROGRAMMING if you want to introduce anything more exotic, such as destroyable object, transformable object, it doesn't support non-static meshes (dunno what they are called, meshes which change their shape and number of triangles) or just object interaction in general, shaders still need a lot of unnecessary effort, and the game is really heavy on the resources considering it's quality.

The engine needs also a lot of work in order to give out a mod-kit and it is DirectX9.

And that is the tip of the iceberg.

[Eldred]

it needs heavy programming to introduce swimming

At least this point is not entirely correct, as swimming was possible in Gothic 3 already, when the Gnome Engine made its first appearens. But I would agree with you that the engine is outdated and I suspect that part of the problem with updating it is, that their lead/senior programmer Carsten Edenfeld, who must have had much insight into the engine, left PB after fixing the engine and I think it was even prior to the release of Risen. I think it is an indication for this that Risen 2 had a lot of grafic bugs where Risen was basically unproblematic.

[The Ore Baron]

I remember when Risen was still in the promotional stage and all we had were some lousy artwork pictures of a gauntlet.

Someone on WoG nicknamed the game as Celtic.

If all else fails, PB could try to create a third RPB game, centered around Celtic culture in a fantasy world reminiscent of Gothic. And yes, I know Gothic had little to do with Gothic culture.

Which begs the question: why was Gothic called Gothic in the first place?

[Maladiq]

http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/a9d0j20_460s.jpg

[Kraszu]

Doesn't matter . It seems to me that they got lucky with Gothic 1 and Gothic 2. Since G3 they started to mess up things ,never got it right as they did when they first started ....seems to me just a lucky shot :-)

G3 was unpolished gem, with Community patch, alternative AI on it is a great game. The guild reputation is great system, having to do quests in a way that gives you REP to one guild or the other, and doing quests in such order to get the most out of all guilds was fun. The REP system in all cities was a bit too much, and little repetitive (mostly saved by needing only 75%) but competing guild REP was good new system.

[Kraszu]

I remember when Risen was still in the promotional stage and all we had were some lousy artwork pictures of a gauntlet.

Someone on WoG nicknamed the game as Celtic.

If all else fails, PB could try to create a third RPB game, centered around Celtic culture in a fantasy world reminiscent of Gothic. And yes, I know Gothic had little to do with Gothic culture.

Which begs the question: why was Gothic called Gothic in the first place?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture

[The Ore Baron]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture
Oh yes, that explains a lot :)
After all, there was so much Gothic architecture in the Old Camp :p

[Maladiq]

Gothic had a more Romanesque architecture. Gothic architecture evolved from it. But the problem is that both Romanesque and Gothic architecture styles originate from France...

[warstrike]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture

I don't think that the game had anything to do with the Gothic architecture

[SlamDunk]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_architecture
Yeah... I'm going to have to say a big NOPE to that one.

[Forward]

Scottish architecture. check that out on google.

[SlamDunk]

I'd say it has got nothing to do with architecture.

[The Ore Baron]

I think Gothic had generic fantasy architecture :o

[Forward]

I'd say it has got nothing to do with architecture.

the old castle from the old camp is inspired by the Scottish architecture, Scottish architecture inspired by the French.
For example: the new world in gothic 2 NOTR is highly inspired by the Ancient Egyptian architecture.

[Maladiq]

For example: the new world in gothic 2 NOTR is highly inspired by the Ancient Egyptian architecture.

More like Mayan.

[mkreku]

I almost never played Gothic because of the name.. It's not really a good name, not really indicative of what kind of game it is or what it's about. Also, around the time Gothic was released there was another, much worse, game released with Gothic in the name, Martian Gothic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martian_Gothic:_Unification). I think I might have gotten them mixed up in my head :P

[Demonium]

In my opinion, their next project should be Gothic related. And it should be a SMALL game on a small detailed map...
A prequel or a sequel but it should stay small...Focus on lore, story, combat and make the world beautiful, memorable characters, places
and beautiful graphics on a new engine (Unreal, Cry Engine)...A small game like Gothic 2 or even Risen 1. They are not capable of taking over a bigger project.

I hear people saying they should try something different...Nope. I think thats the only thing they do better. Moving to something different would be a suicide.

[warstrike]

I hear people saying they should try something different...Nope. I think thats the only thing they do better. Moving to something different would be a suicide.

Yep ! Plus ,we've got so many games from different developers ,why would i ask them for something new when i could simply switch to new developers & different games??

[Powaz]

I think Gothic had generic fantasy architecture :o

What? Nobody mentions the Old Camp castle tower. :(

[The Ore Baron]

What? Nobody mentions the Old Camp castle tower. :(
http://cdn.imghack.se/images/1c88696accc88cdd033744661c92c108.jpg

[Demonium]

Yep ! Plus ,we've got so many games from different developers ,why would i ask them for something new when i could simply switch to new developers & different games??

Exactly! And thats the reason i get frustrated when i see in PB games elements from other RPGs...for example that minimap GPS compass...

We have seen that GPS compass/minimap with cursors and colourful exclamation marks in many other RPGs like Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, etc...It looked ok in those games. Because it was useful and practical and suited the gameplay.

I cant understand why PB believes that such a minimap suits their game as well.
In PB games you had to buy a map or steal it...That was the philosophy of their games. PB games were known for such unique and prototype gameplay elements.
That was the key that made their games so special...Its only a minor element, but if you put together all these gameplay elements,
you automatically create that special atmosphere and affect the hole gameplay experience.

[Forward]

Exactly! And thats the reason i get frustrated when i see in PB games elements from other RPGs...for example that minimap GPS compass...

We have seen that GPS compass/minimap with cursors and colourful exclamation marks in many other RPGs like Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, etc...It looked ok in those games. Because it was useful and practical and suited the gameplay.

I cant understand why PB believes that such a minimap suits their game as well.
In PB games you had to buy a map or steal it...That was the philosophy of their games. PB games were known for such unique and prototype gameplay elements.
That was the key that made their games so special...Its only a minor element, but if you put together all these gameplay elements,
you automatically create that special atmosphere and affect the hole gameplay experience.

yeah...unfortunately mr bjorn says its not cool anymore... i wonder what mike hoge is doing right now?

[Powaz]

Mattias Filler is also no longer present in the team. Not many old-school Piranhas left anymore.

[rotator]

i wonder what mike hoge is doing right now?

Well, he is definitely not in the new "Piranha Bytes HQ" video. Looks like Björn took total power.

[Maladiq]

Sorry, questions about other persons will not be answered by me. Its up to Kai to give a statement about this. I guess he even did in the german forum but im not sure ^^.

Kai said in the german forum that he would like to once again collaborate on a "mammoth" project and make game music. However, only time will tell.

[rotator]

Kai said in the german forum that he would like to once again collaborate on a "mammoth" project and make game music. However, only time will tell.

Sadly he said the opposite. No mammoth projects are planned, only minor ones that fit with his full-time job.

[Maladiq]

Sadly he said the opposite. No mammoth projects are planned, only minor ones that fit with his full-time job.

Goddamn German ^2^

Yet the essence is the same. Despite no being no to all projects. A collaboration is not excluded in the future.

[Maladiq]

Dear Piranhas, I do have this request for you:

Please, for the love of all that's holy for you, select a couple of members from the community and run your ideas past them. Have them sign an NDA and just ask them what they think of the story for the new game.


The stories of R2 and R3 are horrible. R3 might have a good execution, can't tell yet, but the main idea of a hero whose soul is stolen is as bad and overused as it can be.

[warstrike]

Dear Piranhas, I do have this request for you:

Please, for the love of all that's holy for you, select a couple of members from the community and run your ideas past them. Have them sign an NDA and just ask them what they think of the story for the new game.


The stories of R2 and R3 are horrible. R3 might have a good execution, can't tell yet, but the main idea of a hero whose soul is stolen is as bad and overused as it can be.

Heh ,if only it was that simple.
Unfortunately i don't think they would take advice from our small community here .

[Maladiq]

Heh ,if only it was that simple.
Unfortunately i don't think they would take advice from our small community here .

Not necessarily ours. It can be the German or the Russian one. Any member of the community who knows what he is talking about. I'd put my trust in Foobar or Elind for such a task. They just need to be willing to actually receive constructive criticism.

For now, they seem to think any form of criticism is... anti-constructive.

[Morgannin09]

Not necessarily ours. It can be the German or the Russian one. Any member of the community who knows what he is talking about. I'd put my trust in Foobar or Elind for such a task. They just need to be willing to actually receive constructive criticism.

For now, they seem to think any form of criticism is... anti-constructive.

Have I not proven the worth of my opinion? :p I've been doing my best to be the voice of the English community, but while my videos have had a lot of success and influence among the community itself, I don't think PB or DS are aware of me at all.

[rotator]

Dear Piranhas, I do have this request for you:

Please, for the love of all that's holy for you, select a couple of members from the community and run your ideas past them. Have them sign an NDA and just ask them what they think of the story for the new game.

Not sure if serious...

[AshleyG]

The english WorldofRisen forum is too small for Pb to take suggestions here.

About their next game....aren't Piranha's bored with making classical rpg's?
They have been at it for 15 years. The team has changed since, but the ones who were here at the beggining, aren't they bored?

[foobar]

I wouldn't think so. I mean: Would you get bored of playing RPGs for 15 years? Sure, you wouldn't want to play the same game over and over again. But as long as there is diversity and new challenges, there's always room for more. And even within a classic PB game (if we were to ever see one again ;)) there would probably always be room for one to express themselves and find new challenges.

Besides, in my opinion RPGs are the premier league. Properly done, they unite the strengths (and challenges) of all others genres: Story and setting like in an adventure, graphics and freedom of movement like in a shooter, interactive and living worlds like in a simulation, and so on and so forth. And can you ever get bored of playing in the premier league? What genre should they work instead? What bush league should they descend to?

[Nikolai81]

Besides, in my opinion RPGs are the premier league. Properly done, they unite the strengths (and challenges) of all others genres: Story and setting like in an adventure, graphics and freedom of movement like in a shooter, interactive and living worlds like in a simulation, and so on and so forth. And can you ever get bored of playing in the premier league? What genre should they work instead? What bush league should they descend to?

Very well said, I hadn't thought about it that way before. There's also the strategic element of developing your character, outfitting him, and learning the best tactics against various enemies. :dup:

[rotator]

Besides, in my opinion RPGs are the premier league.

I agree. And that's why I don't go harsh on the Piranhas for mistakes and questionable design choices. For me their games are still better, than 99% of the games on the market, some of which are made by a ton of people and money.

[foobar]

Well, I kind of envy you in that regard. Because I don't share that sentiment. Right now, I'm contemplating whether or not I will play R3 right when DS sends me a copy or whether I keep playing Divinity Original Sin. I usually hate games with isometric view but D:OS is still great. The freedom. A big world where you can do and use almost anything. It practically implements the generic gameplay solutions to quest problems which I wrote about two years ago.

If that game only had a 3rd person camera... http://upload.worldofplayers.de/files6/drool.gif

[rotator]

I'm contemplating whether or not I will play R3 right when DS sends me a copy

It breaks my heart. :)

[Morgannin09]

Two more days... I am so glad I'm not working Tuesday. I'll be posting a video as soon as I possibly can.

[Maladiq]

What if the next PB game borrows from Scorsese a bit? I am talking about a first person narration, by the main hero:

"Ever since I was a little kid, all I wanted to be was a fucking pirate." And it follows the road of the main character from a nobody to a hero. With a lot of tongue in cheek comments during cutscenes.

"What was I? A fucking moron?"; "Because such negotiation tactics never failed anyone. Like, ever." skips to the hero getting his ass kicked.

If PB is so keen on using curses, why not use them in a funny way? An antihero that no matter how hard he tries being an asshole doing stuff for himself, manages to end up saving the world and penniless, despite trying to avoid responsibility as much as possible.

[Morgannin09]

That would be very interesting, but it would break the storytelling mold of PB a bit. For an RPG, however, I feel like it would be a big undertaking to add a narration like that. I can't really think of anything outside of a streamlined adventure game that had anything like that.

[Maladiq]

That would be very interesting, but it would break the storytelling mold of PB a bit. For an RPG, however, I feel like it would be a big undertaking to add a narration like that. I can't really think of anything outside of a streamlined adventure game that had anything like that.

They can only use the same exact recipe as many times. But it wouldn't break the type of game they like making: gritty, realistic, balanced, open world.

[Maladiq]

I sincerely hope that PB and Mike will use Faceshift studio in their next project.

How it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dsSjH1qU1E

Demo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b5m40eF3C9E

[roxor]

Western mixed with fantasy theme would be fun. Cowboys and indians, horse riding, etc.

[The Ore Baron]

Western mixed with fantasy theme would be fun. Cowboys and indians, horse riding, etc.
I can imagine that, albeit a little bit more extreme :D Revolvers infused with elemental magic, undead Mexican bandoleros in ponchos, hints of steampunk here and there... Something that doesn't take itself too seriously, yet amounts to a solid, consistent setting.

[Maladiq]

Hey, PB, could you please introduce (via debug keys or console) an "Exploration mode", in which all violent NPCs disappear or turn non-agressive, so the player can just have a walk through a forest, or a ruin, or anything and just relax after a long day? Also, if there will still be a "turn into a bird" spell, could it fly without limitation while the exploration mode is enabled?

This video gave me the idea: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUYpr74x3Kk

[The Ore Baron]

So that's it, then?

[foobar]

So that's it, then?

What's it then?

[The Ore Baron]

What's it then?
The forum, at least the English section, has been pretty quiet lately.
I'm just a little sad, is all. It didn't even take a month after the game was released for all the hype and interest to die out. It's like everyone finished the game in fifty hours and forgot all about it. Now we're just waiting for a new announcement.

I don't want PB games to be like that, these one-time hits. I mean, it's just lame to spend three years eagerly awaiting a game just to be done with it in, what, three days? I was hoping for something I would want to replay several times, even in ten years time. Oh well.

[warstrike]

The forum, at least the English section, has been pretty quiet lately.
I'm just a little sad, is all. It didn't even take a month after the game was released for all the hype and interest to die out. It's like everyone finished the game in fifty hours and forgot all about it. Now we're just waiting for a new announcement.

I don't want PB games to be like that, these one-time hits. I mean, it's just lame to spend three years eagerly awaiting a game just to be done with it in, what, three days? I was hoping for something I would want to replay several times, even in ten years time. Oh well.

Well ,lucky for me ,i still enjoy playing Gothic 1 and Gothic 2 ,even now ,after 10-12 years :D
But yes ,Risen games are not like that.Nowadays ,there are big games getting released every month so it's to be expected that many people lose interest.

[Nikolai81]

Here's a great homage to Gothic, from Risen 3. The original scene comes at the end. Couldn't find a better thread to post this in, so feel free to move it.

In any case: Ha, ha, ha. ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uanfxwh8klQ

[Ariogaisus]

The forum, at least the English section, has been pretty quiet lately.
I'm just a little sad, is all. It didn't even take a month after the game was released for all the hype and interest to die out. It's like everyone finished the game in fifty hours and forgot all about it. Now we're just waiting for a new announcement.

I don't want PB games to be like that, these one-time hits. I mean, it's just lame to spend three years eagerly awaiting a game just to be done with it in, what, three days? I was hoping for something I would want to replay several times, even in ten years time. Oh well.

This is pretty much how all Euro-RPG makers turn out, with the exception of CDProjekt Red ofc.
Remember that game, Venetica? Neither do I.

[Zocky]

The forum, at least the English section, has been pretty quiet lately.
I'm just a little sad, is all. It didn't even take a month after the game was released for all the hype and interest to die out. It's like everyone finished the game in fifty hours and forgot all about it. Now we're just waiting for a new announcement.

I don't want PB games to be like that, these one-time hits. I mean, it's just lame to spend three years eagerly awaiting a game just to be done with it in, what, three days? I was hoping for something I would want to replay several times, even in ten years time. Oh well.

Well yeah but for something like that, at least in my opinion, you need really memorable characters and story that makes you think a little, that is maybe even a little provocative.

In PB's case, just remember end of G2. We talked about it for a long time after it. Why? Well, because noone saw that ending coming, and it was a bit vague, but also rather provoking. Xardas was helping you out and how he's telling you straight in face few things. And you are like OMFG, is he...betraying me, the player? Is he using me? It can't be, he looked like he was really a good guy...sort of. :P

Risen 1 and 2 (didn't play R3), had this problem that they simple didn't have such characters. Mendoza wasn't too horrible but really, he wasn't a character i'd really care at all.

In Risen 2, i'd say Cpt. Steelbeard was maybe a tad better, how he struggled to understand his situation..i think that was a good try at least. But otherwise, PB lately just isn't making interesting characters or shocking story twists, especially at the end, that would make you want to debate farther. You finished your goal, that is. Nothing really to debate.

To change that, Pb would need to work on those areas much harder i think. OF course, as i said, didn't play R3, maybe it was better.

[catalinux]

I finished R3 in 54 hours, as a voodoo pirate, than I tried to play it for a second time as a guardian, but I got bored after a few hours and I quit playing it.

In my opinion, Gothic 1 and 2 survived so long because of the modkid. After so many years, people still create mods for G1 and G2, mods that are interesting, and many of them came with new features.

That's why probably R3 will remain a one-time experience. The game is decent, some islands are beautiful, but it lacks interesting characters, the combat is boring, the plot is mediocre, and so on.

I myself was surprised how soon we stoped really talking about R3. But let's face it, there isn't much to say about it. We finished it, we said our feeling about it, and that's all. The game is so linear and easy to solve that we didn't even had to ask for help.

So probably we keep coming back to this place waiting the find when PB will announce their next game.

[rotator]

Remember that game, Venetica? Neither do I.

Yeah, I do remember. A very enjoyable light RPG.

[Ariogaisus]

Yeah, I do remember. A very enjoyable light RPG.

Yes, but most of the "gaming-world" doesn't probably give a shit about this at all, never did.

[rotator]

Yes, but most of the "gaming-world" doesn't probably give a shit about this at all, never did.

Most of the "gaming-world" probably doesn't give a shit about any of the classic Piranha Bytes games either.

I can imagine the interest factor of the "gaming-world" on a 10-point scale as:

Venetica - 1/10
Gothics - 3/10
Elder Scrolls, Mass Effects - 10/10

[Nikolai81]

In case you're interested, Kai Rosenkranz is active on the Steam forum for Risen 3 now. Here's a relevant quote:


Thanks, so kind of you to say that. I like the soundtracks for Risen 2 & 3, and it was really interesting for me to hear how other composers picked up my styles and themes and added their personal touch. I haven't yet made any plans regarding a reunion with the Piranhas, and they seem very happy with their new audio guy, whom I like very much. But since I'm completely hooked again for making music, I'll just wait what the future brings and focus on my private album for now. I have a day job, after all, and a massive RPG is probably beyond what I can do in my spare time ;).

[Dez]

That's why probably R3 will remain a one-time experience. The game is decent, some islands are beautiful, but it lacks interesting characters, the combat is boring, the plot is mediocre, and so on.

I myself was surprised how soon we stoped really talking about R3. But let's face it, there isn't much to say about it. We finished it, we said our feeling about it, and that's all. The game is so linear and easy to solve that we didn't even had to ask for help.


Player made mods have naturally some important relevance, but in my opinion the main reason why Gothic series remains still relevant to modern audience is the fact that the games are just darn well designed and writen. :)

Surely they have aged a bit and thus lost some of their orginal glory, but despite their age, gothics are still fun games to play. On top of that their music scores are memorable and they are still visually quite intresting and unique. The gothic universe just pulls you in from the very moment you begin playing it.

The gameworlds in gothic games are one of the most immersive gameworlds out there and they're packed with memorable characters. And furthermore the main storyline has quite much depth. It may not seem so at first, but when you dig deeper into gothic lore, you reveal new layers underneath traditional looking fantasy. And its lovely how each game is built on previous games. Gothic 2 and gothic 3 continued where previous game left us.

Remember how many theads we had about topics like: Sleeper, orc wars, Vatras' sermon, undead dragon, Xardas, Magic ore, Gods, nature of rune magic, mages, Chronomanin, old camp history, ...

I don't think Risen series has that kind of mythology or even continuity behind it. Risens are quite simple games really and there are no hidden meanings or secrets to found in risen storyline.

I've thought this some time and I firmly belive that with Risen 1 Piranha Bytes were aiming to that same direction, but they ran out of the time to properly realize their vision. Risen 1 was a great game, but it lacked something which gothics had. Still out of all risen games, Risen 1 still inspires me the most. The game feels almost like gothics.

With risen 2 piranha bytes decided to change Risen series into more light hearted and straightforward adventure tale, but at the same they broke many lore elements which Risen 1 had established. I could get past changed gameplay, but i did not recognize the changed gameworld. It felt somewhat familiar, but "magic" was lost (and literally too! :))

Risen 3 tried to melt everything together and it was a successfull attempt. Sadly the game wasn't quite memorable. A fun game to play through, but far behind gothics. It was an enjoyable game (7/10 or something like that), but suffered from medicore story and severe balance issues. I will probably replay risen 3 at some point though. I want to experience the game from the demon hunter point of view, but its not something i'd put first on my gaming list :)

This is how i'd rate pbs games from best to worst:

Gothic 2 gold > gothic 1 > Risen 1 > gothic 3 cp 1.75 > Risen 3 > Risen 2


So probably we keep coming back to this place waiting the find when PB will announce their next game.

That is also true :) Hopefully its a brand new setting or gothic sequel rather than risen 4.

[Morgannin09]

The Gothic games are literally timeless (apart from the fact that you have to do so much just to get them to run on any computer these days). I just finished my overwhelming walkthrough for Gothic 3 a few weeks ago. Now I'm gonna re-do my walkthrough for the first game all over again. And I'm watching for updates on all sorts of mods for each of them these days, many of which look extremely promising.

This is what Piranha Bytes should keep in mind. The appeal of the Gothic games is how much you can do in them, which includes how much you CANNOT do in a single playthrough. They really keep you playing because you always want to try a different route to the ending as soon as you finished the last one. And making the games more mod-friendly would go a long way in keeping the interest and passion of the fans alive until the next title, and also really allow the fans to show PB what we really want next time, by making the damn features ourselves.

[Dino]

That is also true :) Hopefully its a brand new setting or gothic sequel rather than risen 4.

I'd really rather have a new game which takes place in the Gothic universe. Whether it's before or after the events of g1-g3, I'd prefer it over another risen product.

Speaking of the replay value of the Gothics, this week I replayed Night of the Raven twice. I'm planning to play it a third time too but I don't know, I also kind of feel like playing gothic 1 again.
And it's been 12 years since I first laid my hands on those games. I can't say the same for any other titles out there.

[Dez]

Same here and I agree about the replay value of gothic series... I've also replayed gothics through quite many times and I will replay them once again when sooner or later. :)

I'd not hesitate if piranha bytes for example decided to do a kickstarter campaign collecting funds for the next gothic game! Better for us would be naturally if they got a publishing deal because these type of games are quite costy to develop.

[The Ore Baron]

I've been thinking a little, and I decided I do not want PB to work on a Gothic game. With the way the Risen games turned out to be, I don't think just returning to a familiar setting will be enough to produce a quality Gothic game. And although the original games would still be there, I do believe mediocre sequels ruin the previous games to an extent, as well. So I think they should either work on Risen 4 and finally finish the Titan War saga, or develop a completely new game.

Not sure what has to change, though. I think I'm starting to deal with the fact that PB will never reach the golden heights of their past works we oh so annoyingly (albeit rightfully) praise. The team has changed, the level of personal investment has changed, the industry has changed... Too many variables to just expect some convenient realignment of everything that caused the latest PB games to be sub-par.

I'm not saying I no longer love PB, no. They're still one of my favorite developers. Mainly, I still think they design well-crafted and beautiful levels, something other similar games are yet to provide. The writing may suck, and the non-Kai soundtracks are hardly memorable, but PB games are still among the most immersive games around just because of the worlds they design, as tubular as they are.

What are you opinions on this subject? Now that we had some time to think and calm our passions, maybe your outlook on PB's future has changed as well? Are you still excited about their new project? Do you think Mike's side project could be the spiritual torch-bearer of the classic PB spirit?

Also, any news from the German section? I check the news bulletin regularly, but nothing major is being anounced. Maybe the developers have dropped some hints or something?

[Misanthrope]

They should follow their vision, whatever it is at the moment. Ours is to decide if we wish to keep supporting this idea or not. And of course, it would require A LOT more than just placing a game in a Gothic setting. First and foremost passion and creative charge, but also a HUGE amount of self criticism from their side. Sad thing is they've stated themselves they don't think they "have what it takes" (not the actual quote) to make another Gothic project. And that's what frustrates me the most. If you don't have enough faith in your project why anyone else should.

They need to bring their old passion back to the equation or hire someone weit deep understanding of Gothic and what it meant to us players. IMO, they are in a very good shape as developers (R3 was technically quite polished). It's just... coordination from the top - not as many of us would like. Also, from a business perspective, having a "Gothic" brand at your disposal and not using is a terrible waste of potential.

Now, regarding the future PB projects. Honestly, I'm trying hard to come up with a reason to wish for another Risen game, but I can't. This has nothing to do with my overall mild-positive view on the game, it's that it simply failed to intrigue my imagination in any direction. Risen 4 or a new franchise - I give my vote for new franchise (although I already see them contemplating on three additional pirate captains).

[Delicieuxz]

Remakes of Gothic 1 and 2 are definitely needed at some point. And even a remake of Gothic 3 - where they use the world and story, but revamp the quest structure so that it's more like Gothic 1 & 2 in design, and less like a modern TES game.

[The Ore Baron]

Now, regarding the future PB projects. Honestly, I'm trying hard to come up with a reason to wish for another Risen game, but I can't. This has nothing to do with my overall mild-positive view on the game, it's that it simply failed to intrigue my imagination in any direction.
While I understand this is a viable opinion, I must say I disagree. Although I liked how the first Risen game introduced a setting that was something like a more exotic Gothic, I think PB did a really good job at creating a rather unique pirate setting in their later two games. The blend of traditional magic with pirate legends, voodoo magic and colonial traditions turned out quite alright, I think. Sure, the setting could use a lot more polish, but the base for fun and immersive adventures is there. That's why I'd be rather excited for another pirate-themed Risen game... but only if PB makes some believable promises on improving their past faults, mainly writing. By Innos, I still feel vestiges of anger when I think of how bad the writing of Risen 3 was...


Remakes of Gothic 1 and 2 are definitely needed at some point. And even a remake of Gothic 3 - where they use the world and story, but revamp the quest structure so that it's more like Gothic 1 & 2 in design, and less like a modern TES game.
And what exactly is there to 'remake' in a Gothic remake? Improvements to script? New content? A graphical uplift?
I don't know, to me, Gothic 1 and 2 are great as they are, especially with high-res texture mods. Gameplay might have aged badly a little, but I don't think a new control scheme is reason enough for a remake. So what enhancements and additional content would you like to see in Gothic remakes? I suppose they could expand upon the lore more, with introduction of more books or character dialogues dealing with history of the Gothic world, but - not to repeat myself like a parrot - I don't think PB's current writing team are up to the challenge of not only improving, but not ruining the already established lore.

[Morgannin09]

By Innos, I still feel vestiges of anger when I think of how bad the writing of Risen 3 was...


The writing in Risen 3 was vastly improved over Risen 2, in my opinion. Risen 2 brought with it a lot of plot holes, major characters and lore developments failed to carry over or progress from the first game, and every new thing it introduced was very bland and generic. It's hard to even criticize, to be honest, because none of it left enough of an impression for me to even remember why I didn't like it.

Risen 3 TRIED. It was a monumental task that was already undermined by how bad Risen 2 was, but questions we had from the first game came to be answered, just not always in a fully satisfying and believable way. The Mages, for example, were literally not mentioned in Risen 2. No idea what was supposed to have happened to them. Risen 3 clarified that they were exiled by the Inquisition after a feud following the King's death. A couple things weren't answered to my liking, such as the disappearance of crystal and rune magic. Somehow both of those things made a return in Risen 3 (crystals for mages, runes for Demon Hunters), and neither faction made it clear how they were able to find it again or what happened to it in the first place.

Personally, they've given me confidence that they can pull together a cohesive and satisfying story NOW, where they failed before, as one of the things they mentioned was they began using an internal Wiki when designing their story to ensure that they all have access to story details as they develop them, whereas they admitted they used to lose some of the notes they would write during the development of the Gothic and first Risen games.

If PB REALLY took the time to refresh themselves on the Gothic games, I think they could pull off a remake, fleshing out the story and characters more since they already have a firm foundation for it. Rebuilding the games on an improved engine (not the Genome engine, for goodness sake), with superior graphics and animations, as well as better combat controls and variety to skills and magic, and a more extensive story... I'd buy that all day. I just want to see one solid RPG from them before I could have faith in them pulling that off.

[catalinux]

Lately I've seen that the guys from PB spend a lot of time playing video games, every week there is at least a new video of them on yt. I hope they will not be influenced by that sort of video games they are playing. And it would be nice if in their next game we will see a human settlement with more than 5 houses and 10 inhabitants.

[The Ore Baron]

Lately I've seen that the guys from PB spend a lot of time playing video games, every week there is at least a new video of them on yt. I hope they will not be influenced by that sort of video games they are playing. And it would be nice if in their next game we will see a human settlement with more than 5 houses and 10 inhabitants.
What are these games in question, and where can I see guys from PB playing them? I wasn't even aware they had a YT channel :dnuhr: Do they post these videos on their Facebook? Most of the content there is in German, so I don't check their page very often...

Also, here's a Risen 3 screenshot (http://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2015/03/12/scavengers.jpg) I retouched a little, I think it looks quite neat :gratz

EDIT

Oh, and yes, I've been meaning to reply to Morgannin's post for a while now. It's a little late, but better than never :D


The writing in Risen 3 was vastly improved over Risen 2, in my opinion.
The quality of separate lines and wording - yes, it saw an improvement. Risen 3 offers more varied dialogue, different speech patterns, even more humor. However, the quality of how the main plot was written and told... It's a different business altogether.


Risen 2 brought with it a lot of plot holes, major characters and lore developments failed to carry over or progress from the first game, and every new thing it introduced was very bland and generic. It's hard to even criticize, to be honest, because none of it left enough of an impression for me to even remember why I didn't like it.
And Risen 3 continued this trend very successfully. Not only it didn't even attempt to build on top of what Risen 2 set forth, it created entirely new plot elements that had very little to do with the previous games. The entire game is a big side-conflict to the Titan War and, despite the title, features only one Titan Lord.


Risen 3 TRIED.
It didn't, it really didn't. The answer about why the mages were banished was answered in the manual of Risen 2. And then you yourself admit that several questions remained unanswered and strange events were unexplained.


Personally, they've given me confidence that they can pull together a cohesive and satisfying story NOW, where they failed before, as one of the things they mentioned was they began using an internal Wiki when designing their story to ensure that they all have access to story details as they develop them, whereas they admitted they used to lose some of the notes they would write during the development of the Gothic and first Risen games.
Funny, because those games turned out way better plot-wise. If this gives you confidence - fine, I'm in no place to judge. But to me, the only thing PB proved is that they can only improve in some ways by worsening in others. And to me that just isn't good enough.
Also, it would be very interesting to read through that internal wiki... I wish they would publish it or something :)

[Morgannin09]

Yes, questions still remain unanswered, but remember that those questions were all posed only because of the plot holes introduced in Risen 2. I've mostly got no problem with how the individual plot of Risen 3 was told - it's a bit trickier to get a fixed narrative in proper pacing when they gave much more openness and freedom in Risen 3 as opposed to the more linear progression of Risen 2. But they still did it better than games like Skyrim, where, in the interests of giving you loads of freedom and content and never force you to engage in the main story, means that none of the progression you make in any of the plot really feels like it means or changes anything.
As far as the plot itself, no, I was never terribly interested in it, and I won't act like I was. I thought the subtitle "Titan Lords" was plain and stupid, and I was let down by the fact that, apart from Nekroloth, the only Titan Lords were Mara and Ursegor, who you only met briefly and who hardly helped move the story at all. So I agree with you about the plot as a whole. It was not great, but it's clear to me (again, because of Risen 2) that Piranha Bytes wasn't making a point of bringing closure to the overall Titan war, but more about telling the stories of the individual conflicts within the war. Risen 2 only had us fighting Mara, none of the other Titan Lords (who were even less apparent than in Risen 3) ever played a direct role in the main story, and Mara had nothing to do whatsoever with the events of Faranga, so you can't single out Risen 3 for having a fairly stand-alone plot. I think that all also ties into the fact that PB seemed fairly determined to bring in even more players with each sequel, which is probably why the writing and continuity suffered so much - they didn't want newcomers to be as lost as they would have been, say, if they played Gothic 3 without ever playing the previous two. (Gothic 3 is its own beast in terms of the writing department, though, eek)

The stories overall in the Gothic games were more enjoyable, yes, but I still firmly believe that Piranha Bytes was never really intending Risen to be their new flagship franchise. The story is terribly bland as a result, but a lot of its writing problems still exist in the Gothic games. In Gothic 3, I was always itching to know what happened to Khorinis. Not a single character really had a word about that, except Thorus, who only said that the Orcs finally conquered it. The Hero apparently never thought it prudent to find out more. Even if you took characters like Vatras, Bennett, Girion (the paladin who insisted he come with you at the end), Biff, and Pedro on the ship with you at the end of Gothic II, not a single one of them besides Vatras shows up in Gothic 3 - he's the only character introduced in Gothic II that makes it into the sequel. And I remember discussing with Foobar about how the Water Mages inexplicably turned out to be Nomads from Varant, something that was never even remotely hinted at in either of the previous games. There's surely more, but I'm busying myself playing through the Gothics all over again and so nothing really springs to mind at the moment.

I suppose I given Risen 3 too much credit just because I enjoyed it so much more than Risen 2, and the story was at least slightly more appealing than the Pirates of the Carribean rip-off of Risen 2. But the idea of them using a Wiki to keep their stories straight (which it sounds like they only just started using it for Risen 3, so whether it helps or not remains to be seen) gives me at least a bit of... I won't say "hope," really just cautious optimism, that perhaps they can stay organized and avoid forgetting to close certain plots and pulling nonsense out of nowhere to compensate. Bottom line, though, is that they need to really stoke their creative fires if we're going to get a story and setting as unique as Gothic again.

EDIT: also, your comment on what happened to the Mages being told in the manual... sorry, I think a narrative driven game should not rely on a manual to tell such critical details of the story :p

[catalinux]

What are these games in question, and where can I see guys from PB playing them? I wasn't even aware they had a YT channel :dnuhr: Do they post these videos on their Facebook? Most of the content there is in German, so I don't check their page very often...
Also, here's a Risen 3 screenshot (http://www.imageupload.co.uk/images/2015/03/12/scavengers.jpg) I retouched a little, I think it looks quite neat :gratz

Links for the videos (published on DevPlay's yt Channel) are to be found on PB's fb page. Nothing interesting, thou.
PB has indeed a yt channel, but nothing new there since the trailer for Risen 3.

I like a lot the "scavengers screenshot"! It would work well as a loading screen for a mod.

[Forward]

I remember them telling us that news might come earlier this time...
so is there anything new except that they are working on a new project? :rolleyes:

[warstrike]

I remember them telling us that news might come earlier this time...
so is there anything new except that they are working on a new project? :rolleyes:

I don't recall them saying that.Link to that ?

[Forward]

I don't recall them saying that.Link to that ?

that what Jenny said, according to Elind.
(anyway... if you can read Russian, heres the link :D )
http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum/threads/1329489-Ответы-PB-в-немецком-и-англий�ком-форумах?p=23818027&viewfull=1#post23818027

[Andante]

I hope they're working on a game that is a real return to the roots this time, but what worries me the most is that there is no sign of "life" or any news in these forums for the last 6 months which is extremely unprofessional if you ask me. Shouldn't they be informing us about what they're working on, why so much secrecy? I want to admit that I still recall the Risen 1 days and am still waiting for it's true sequel. Yes, I haven't completely lost my hope for PB for I still know what they're capable of, or were.

[Grimmwulf]

I hope they're working on a game that is a real return to the roots this time, but what worries me the most is that there is no sign of "life" or any news in these forums for the last 6 months which is extremely unprofessional if you ask me. Shouldn't they be informing us about what they're working on, why so much secrecy? I want to admit that I still recall the Risen 1 days and am still waiting for it's true sequel. Yes, I haven't completely lost my hope for PB for I still know what they're capable of, or were.

Can't blame them for not being active on a forum that's so close to death, though. There's like 4-5 gamers here who post a couple of times each month, and it's mostly cynicism. If there was more gamer activity here, there'd be more developer activity as well. The developers are active on the German forum, which is significantly more alive.

[Morgannin09]

I sincerely hope they're encouraged to offer some international exposure to their new game once its developed a bit more, but it would be good for them to seek our questions as well. When I was making the pre-release Risen 3 videos last year, they were getting thousands of views in a matter of months, so it's not like the international community has given up on them - everyone still really wants to see what they have coming.

[Grimmwulf]

I suggest that there should be an overly prideful peasant in the next game. Nobleman, swerve!

http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1368/22/1368224029756.png

[The Ore Baron]

A lot of talk has been raised over how PB could improve their lore and backstory implementation.

What about comics?

Let's pretend the new project will be Risen 4. The party member system will probably make a return with some returning characters and some new. Let's say there are six party members planned.

Six moths before the game is released, PB could start publishing a monthly 8-page comic, each issue portraying a small adventure being experienced by one of the party members. It would provide some small details of what happened after Risen 3 and also provide some backstory to these characters. Then in the game itself, each of the party members could have a personal quest somehow relating to the adventure told in the comics. The players would be able to visit locations portrayed there and help their friends finish some business that was left hanging in the comics. As a reward, characters would improve uniquely some how - gain a second special skill, become stronger or change their appearance somehow (new armour or haircut or something like that), reflecting some personal change.

I think it would work very nicely. That is, if the comics are released for free... I guess printed versions could be offered for sale, or shipped with special editions.

Do you think it's viable/possible?

EDIT
Also, include this (http://s29.postimg.org/clukuhf3q/bonusstunt.jpg)next time :D

[foobar]

Given PB's team size, I doubt they could divert any manpower to such a project. It would have to be realised by the publisher (DS). They would have to contract some 3rd party to make the comic and they would have to pay for it.

Then the question is how much of the original will actually go into the comics. Remember the Risen 2 and 3 trailers? Would that kind of "information" in comic form really be helpful?


What I think would be way easier and more direct: They already said in the gamescom interview that they now have an internal wiki where they manage their lore. They could just touch the articles up a little, maybe remove internal information and then re-publish them on their website.

[The Ore Baron]

They could just touch the articles up a little, maybe remove internal information and then re-publish them on their website.
Have any other developers done anything like that in the past?
I wonder if further edits could be made by the players, or would it be locked and presented as the official, therefore perfect wiki :D

[foobar]

Have any other developers done anything like that in the past?

None come to mind.

[Grimmwulf]

I don't like to bring up 'that game', but Spellbound did do something similar (or at least relevant) to what you're suggesting. Throughout the months leading up to release, they gradually released more short stories regarding the game world. It's one of the things they did right.

http://www.worldofgothic.com/gothic4/?go=shortstories

[The Ore Baron]

I don't like to bring up 'that game', but Spellbound did do something similar (or at least relevant) to what you're suggesting. Throughout the months leading up to release, they gradually released more short stories regarding the game world. It's one of the things they did right.
Yeah, I remember those, they really did work quite well. We learned how the inn go the name of Cleaved Maiden, and in-game it was revealed what the statue really represented, then we had a quest to return the inkeeper husband's peg leg from the goblins and could even meet Pied later in the game (although in my game he didn't offer any dialogue, strangely). I particularly like the story that revealed the whereabouts of Thorus and his band of renegade orcs.
So yeah, my suggestion is along those lines, but it was Dragon Age and Mass Effect comics I had in mind when writing that post.

[Misanthrope]

What about comics?


Why not. However, comics and other external materials should enrich what is already a solid and well established 'in-game' lore. I'm more for a comic AFTER the next project is released.

Or maybe something like this would suffice: http://www.gothic.de/gothic2/content_english/content_story.php (http://www.gothic.de/gothic2/content_english/content_story.php)

[The Ore Baron]

http://www.gothic.de/gothic2/content_english/content_story.php (http://www.gothic.de/gothic2/content_english/content_story.php)
Wasn't that later included in the Gothic 2 manual?
Those are nice, in general. Blizzard used to be (and probably still is) the best at story-telling in manuals. Ever read those? Pages over pages of lore and backstory, sets the entire context of the plot of the games. Hell, every magical spell, unit and building has an in-lore explanation. Same goes for Diablo games, to a somewhat lesser extent.
But I digress. Yeah, short stories would be... a start, I suppose. I never enjoyed reading descriptions of action scenes, though. Visual art portrays such scenes a lot more effectively, among other things. And as much as I may enjoy reading, I have an appreciation for drawn art as well, so comics always clicked nicely with me.
An argument was raised that PB would have to hire someone else to draw the comics. I don't know much about outsourcing things like that, but I don't think it would be entirely impossible for someone in PB to draw some short comics. I mean, we're not talking 180-page visual novels here. Heck, I've drawn some comics myself, can't be that hard for a professional artist, if someone from the writing team comes up with the stories and the dialogues.

[Morgannin09]

I wouldn't care if there was little in the way of action or conflict in such short stories. It would actually be much more satisfying for the stories to simply offer exposition on a lot of the character-to-character dialog and relations behind the scenes, the sort of interaction that we never get to see in gameplay. Just details that add substance to the backstory. For example, had they done something like this in the first Risen, it would have been nice to have a post-release collection of short stories following Mendoza, which explain where and how he found the Ocular, how he came to discover the connection between the Holy Flame and the Fire Titan, and dialog between him and his lieutenants, in particular with Commandant Carlos, who used to follow him with almost religious zeal. Just things that would have added to the plot, but wouldn't have been necessary to understand it.

[Maladiq]

Here we go, a list of what I personally consider a must in an RPG by PB


Background and current lore. The history of the world and info on every single part of it.
Characters which are more than just bundles of curse words. Give us some emotion, and I don't mean boo-hoo Patty clichee, my daddy died, that was one of the most idiotic moments in PB history. I am talking about Lee in G1, talking about treason, honour, I am talking about Rachel in Risen, who had a silent despair in her voice.
A free roaming world, not separated by loading screens. I think it is safe to assume technology these days can handle a large world without loading screens.
By free roaming I mean everything: FREE climbing, swimming, diving, and stop, in the name of God, using INVISIBLE WALLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't care if I manage to get into a forbidden are at a point in the game, I want to go there and have my ass kicked. I want to fall from that high cliff. I want to reach the top of that mountain or jump in the lava! And in the name of all holy things, stop using QTEs and show-player-position cutscenes
Give us large settlements. I don't care if there is a single character with a name and quests, I want at least 20 others around him, without a name, but with which I can talk to, who can give me the pulse of the world, like in the Old or New Camps in Gothic, or the Mine.
Give us inventory items, not Provisions. Give an option, with the right skill and a stove or camp fire to cook everything into provisions, so they give +10 hp instead of let's say 8 each.
Stop inventory crafting. It's stupid and ruins everything.
Dark scary forests, and I mean piss your pants scary, just like in Gothic 1 and 2. Low visibility, dense vegetation, eerie music.
If you're gonna force us to use a party system, then let us take our whole army of bad-asses, not just one at a time. I want to be able to lead a team of 10 characters and wreck havoc on a settlement.
The console and cheats. I want my cheats. And not only God mode, but I also want a cheat which maxes up all of my abilities, skills and perks.

[Morgannin09]

Here we go, a list of what I personally consider a must in an RPG by PB


Background and current lore. The history of the world and info on every single part of it.
Characters which are more than just bundles of curse words. Give us some emotion, and I don't mean boo-hoo Patty clichee, my daddy died, that was one of the most idiotic moments in PB history. I am talking about Lee in G1, talking about treason, honour, I am talking about Rachel in Risen, who had a silent despair in her voice.
A free roaming world, not separated by loading screens. I think it is safe to assume technology these days can handle a large world without loading screens.
By free roaming I mean everything: FREE climbing, swimming, diving, and stop, in the name of God, using INVISIBLE WALLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I don't care if I manage to get into a forbidden are at a point in the game, I want to go there and have my ass kicked. I want to fall from that high cliff. I want to reach the top of that mountain or jump in the lava! And in the name of all holy things, stop using QTEs and show-player-position cutscenes
Give us large settlements. I don't care if there is a single character with a name and quests, I want at least 20 others around him, without a name, but with which I can talk to, who can give me the pulse of the world, like in the Old or New Camps in Gothic, or the Mine.
Give us inventory items, not Provisions. Give an option, with the right skill and a stove or camp fire to cook everything into provisions, so they give +10 hp instead of let's say 8 each.
Stop inventory crafting. It's stupid and ruins everything.
Dark scary forests, and I mean piss your pants scary, just like in Gothic 1 and 2. Low visibility, dense vegetation, eerie music.
If you're gonna force us to use a party system, then let us take our whole army of bad-asses, not just one at a time. I want to be able to lead a team of 10 characters and wreck havoc on a settlement.
The console and cheats. I want my cheats. And not only God mode, but I also want a cheat which maxes up all of my abilities, skills and perks.



For once, I can offer no real argument with you. Some of my favorite moments of Gothic and Gothic 2 were climbing off the map and finding either the end of the world, or a new way to approach difficult situations... or sometimes, car frames and space dwarfs :p

The idea of converting multiple food items into one superior one was something that already existed... in the FIRST Risen. I have no idea why they wouldn't be able to bring that back, because it was a great idea. Seriously, I ended up carrying a backpack full of Hotpots instead of healing potions because they were more powerful than most healing potions and were a way to use up all the stacks of useless meat I was carrying. I loved it.

I see no reason why crafting and everything needs a separate menu. In fact, NOTHING should have a separate menu. If they prevented you from being able to use your inventory during a fight, as well as bring back the animations for drinking potions to prevent you from chugging them, it would go a long way toward helping them balance their combat system properly. In Risen 2 and 3, as well as the Elder Scrolls franchise, healing instantly was a boring cop-out to avoid any sensible balancing of combat difficulty - too hard? Just pause and queue up a hundred fucking potions, you'll be fine.

Nighttime in the colony or the forests of Khorinis were literally terrifying. Like, Shadow of Chernobyl terrifying. I couldn't bear to be out in the dark, at least not without a bow or magic in hand so that the names of enemies would pop up at a safe distance :p

I want them to get rid of the companion system entirely. I really don't like the way they pulled it off. It imbalances gameplay, but you feel inclined to keep them around, because having them as followers nets you a lot of extra dialog. Having contextual followers like they had in all the previous games, or even just followers who are happy to follow you for money (ala Biff, of Gothic II) or will accompany you through a certain area as long as you want them around, would be more enjoyable. I also don't like the idea of the ship as a hub for a lot of characters who, in reality, just stand around and do nothing. If you want to have a system like that, you should make it so that you can give them jobs or otherwise keep them busy, otherwise they're liable to disappear and stop working for you.

[Maladiq]

Sherlock time:

Since there was no formal announcement of parting ways between PB and DS, which would have been made had the two parties parted ways, and since only DS would keep the publisher a secret, I deduce that DS is the publisher for their next project.

Since Koch Media (DS' parent company, which holds the rights to Risen) didn't bother registering during the last years any new IP which might be the title for an RPG, or an RPG which might feet PB, I deduce that the only possible project in this situation is Risen 4: (hopefully not) Brown Waters.

[The Ore Baron]

Here we go, a list of what I personally consider a must in an RPG by PB.
Even though I'm not disagreeing with your list (it's pretty good and to the point), I feel obliged to note that this sort of suggesting is pretty much useless by this point, and is barely anything more than whining in PB's eyes. We know, generally speaking, how much output PB can produce during their development time for a single game, so just asking them to 'give' you a bunch of features will make little difference, if any - and we all know it. The typical response will soon follow: "Limited time, limited resources, need for prioritizing." Therefore, for our suggestions to be of any use to PB, every 'give', must also have a 'take' - that is, a feature we'd recommend removing from their next game, in hopes of saving resources and time.
How many of these features are deemed as 'must-have' by the publisher remains a mystery, though. I doubt PB is in full authority to ditch all concepts they (or we) don't like.
Again, not disagreeing with you there, just noting it's sort of redundant by now. If PB could include everything we list here at WoR, Risen 2 would have turned out to be the best game ever.

EDIT: Did anyone here honestly believe their next game WOULDN'T be Risen 4?

[Maladiq]

Features to remove? Hmm, good idea. Let me think for a moment.

1. Invisible walls, they take a lot of time to put into place.
2. Scripted climbing. It takes a lot to put into place.
3. Sailing ships and sea battles.
4. QTEs.
5. Unnecessary cutscenes which show you something right in front of you.
6. Unnecessary sky effects.
7. Minigames


Just to name a few.

[The Ore Baron]

Solid list. What do you mean by unnecessary sky effects, though?

And heh, minigames, whoever thought they were a good idea in the first place? You'd expect them in Fable, not Gothic/Risen. Did someone here at WoR ask for them? I just remember one of the devs saying minigames were supposed to make the pirate experience more immersive or something. Did anyone even like them?

[Grimmwulf]

And heh, minigames, whoever thought they were a good idea in the first place? You'd expect them in Fable, not Gothic/Risen. Did someone here at WoR ask for them? I just remember one of the devs saying minigames were supposed to make the pirate experience more immersive or something. Did anyone even like them?

I actually enjoyed the shooting range in R2 and the knife-throwing in R3. I've always had a thing for reflex-based mini games like that, in moderation. One of my early gaming memories is knife-throwing at the thieves' guild in QfG1. I tend to enjoy memory-based lockpicking games as well, as long as they don't happen too often.

As long as those kinds of mini games are optional, they're a benefit. The people who create those mini games aren't the same people who write story and dialogue, so it's not as if that's being sacrificed in favor of mini games anyway.

[Grimmwulf]

Features to remove? Hmm, good idea. Let me think for a moment.

1. Invisible walls, they take a lot of time to put into place.

They're there to save time. If they hadn't been used along the lava river on Calador in R3, then the content on the other side of the island would have needed to be tested and tweaked for all the kinds of shenanigans players who'd go there 'too early' might have been up to, and the Demon Hunter quest about crossing the river would have been moot. Ideally the island and the quests would have been designed in a way that didn't necessitate the invisible wall in the first place, though.

[The Ore Baron]

The people who create those mini games aren't the same people who write story and dialogue, so it's not as if that's being sacrificed in favor of mini games anyway.
I wouldn't be so sure. Minigames and their implementation still demand part of the general resource pool, not to mention there are quests that incorporate them, dialogue lines that describe them, and time schedules for several characters that play these games. So just because other people are working on it, does not mean it doesn't impact the general development process.
I'm not familiar with the inner workings of PB, though, so I won't assume a strong position on this topic.

[Maladiq]

Solid list. What do you mean by unnecessary sky effects, though?

And heh, minigames, whoever thought they were a good idea in the first place? You'd expect them in Fable, not Gothic/Risen. Did someone here at WoR ask for them? I just remember one of the devs saying minigames were supposed to make the pirate experience more immersive or something. Did anyone even like them?

Sky effects = those portals in the sky. They were nice, but unnecessary for the experience.

Concerning the mini-games, sure, they were cute, I liked them, but I forgot about them in a second. They don't make a difference and don't add to the game too much. If they made 20-30 minigames/game and centered around them for XP gaining and so on, then it would count. But that only works for platform games mainly, or tongue in cheek games. In an RPG characters and story are more important, so they can just throw those away.

[catalinux]

Features to remove? [...]

1. Invisible walls, they take a lot of time to put into place.
2. Scripted climbing. It takes a lot to put into place.
3. Sailing ships and sea battles.
4. QTEs.
5. Unnecessary cutscenes which show you something right in front of you.
6. Unnecessary sky effects.
7. Minigames

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. No. I like sailing ships, I like sea battes. The problem with Risen 3 is how they implemented them. Not really sailing, not really sea battles. But the intention was good.
4. Don't know what QTE is.
5. Yes. I disliked cutscenes since Gothic1.
6. No. Those are nice. Good for the atmosphere.
7. No. I liked the throwing knives minigame. I disliked the drinking contest (that hand was stupid looking) and I hated the other minigame where you had to press like a monkey left-right-up-down-and-so-on. But the throwing knives was nice.
(I always wanted to play chess, even strip chess in a PB games...)

Now, about the "list of what I personally consider a must in an RPG by PB":

5. large settlements - YES, a proper settlement would be nice. And I don't talk about towns. I don't care what kind of settlement would it be, but I would like to see a proper settlement, with more than 30-40 NPCs.
6 and 7 - YES.
10. No. I don't want to cheat. But a MDK would be nice (and YES, we know it will never happen, but still).
9. I liked the party system from Risen 2 and 3. You want a team of 10? Sure, why not. What I'd like is to have a companion, only one, smart enough to have something new to say from time to time, depending on your actions.

[Maladiq]

QTE = quick time event. Those cutscenes where you have to quickly press a button or you die.

Now, here is a great natural level design, I guess Sascha would have an eyegasm if he sees this:

http://img-9gag-ftw.9cache.com/photo/a0LM90B_460s.jpg

[Morgannin09]

10. No. I don't want to cheat.

Well, nobody would be forcing you to. Some of us just really enjoy it as something to get carried away in, seeing what kind of shenanigans we can cause by doodling with numbers and spawning loads of monsters. The debug mode in Gothic 1 through Risen 1 were used by the developers to test their game to make sure it works properly, without having to worry about getting slowed down by the actual game. They obviously use a debug mode currently, so making it accessible to the player wouldn't be that difficult - just don't remove it from the game. The problem is, nowadays, so many publishers and developers are so obsessed with the appearances of their games, that I imagine they are afraid of players screwing around with the console, messing up the settings, breaking the game, and then presenting all this online and making it look like the developers made a broken game.

[foobar]

10. No. I don't want to cheat.

Then don’t.

But why do you have to deny everyone else the opportunity to do so? Why do you want people to be unable to hopefully fix bugs they will encounter themselves? To just fool around with the game a bit after the serious playthrough? To explore the skill system a bit before beginning in earnest so they know where to invest their fame or LP?

[catalinux]

Then don’t.

But why do you have to deny everyone else the opportunity to do so? Why do you want people to be unable to hopefully fix bugs they will encounter themselves? To just fool around with the game a bit after the serious playthrough? To explore the skill system a bit before beginning in earnest so they know where to invest their fame or LP?

I see your point. A console used for other reasons than cheating, that I would like.

[Andante]

It has been a long time ago since I last visited WOR and sadly I realize that nothing has really changed. Again the 'New PB' chose to walk a well trodden path. They refuse to talk about the crimes they commited on the Risen series and as nothing happened arouse us about their upcoming project...The typical failed PB strategy. No self-critic, no apologies to the fans. How can I trust a company that turned an AAA title (Risen 1) into a low quality disaster?

[Grimmwulf]

In case anyone is interested, the Gothic Trilogy (thankfully without Forsaken Gods) is available at GOG.com (http://www.gog.com/promo/bundle_tower_gothic_trilogy_170415) now, at a 60% discount for the next 41 hours.

[The Ore Baron]

(thankfully without Forsaken Gods)
I think Forsaken Gods was better than Gothic 3. Fight me IRL.
No, seriously, the game was a nice continuation to Xardas' ending, it featured several character returning in major roles (Thorus leading the orcs, Lee settling down after his revenge arc, the rebel brothers trying to protect simple people from the civil war), it had actual factions fighting for control of Myrtana (political intrigue, which Gothic 3 severely lacked), the plot was clear and had a concrete storyline (instead of find Xardas -> liberate towns -> talk to god -> end slideshow), the game featured some nice throwbacks to previous games (the Eye of Innos, Sleeper memorabilia, etc.), the troglodytes were creepy as hell (a feeling Gothic 3 was not able to conjure in me)... I could go on. Hell, even the shopping quest was interesting - it allowed us to see how the world is recovering from the war, people returning to their everyday lives. It was nice.
I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone here, but seriously, I enjoyed the game a lot, and I find it a little confusing more people didn't. Is this a classic case of radical fan-boyism? Just a guess.
The only two things I didn't like is the birdman quest (what the hell?) and the way the super secret mega armour looked (almost sci-fi). The last boss could've used some more imaginative design, but it wasn't too bad.
Anyway, that's my two cents. Feel free to share your comments on why it's so horrible, I'm honestly interested in what you hated about the game.

[Morgannin09]

I think Forsaken Gods was better than Gothic 3. Fight me IRL.
No, seriously, the game was a nice continuation to Xardas' ending, it featured several character returning in major roles (Thorus leading the orcs, Lee settling down after his revenge arc, the rebel brothers trying to protect simple people from the civil war), it had actual factions fighting for control of Myrtana (political intrigue, which Gothic 3 severely lacked), the plot was clear and had a concrete storyline (instead of find Xardas -> liberate towns -> talk to god -> end slideshow), the game featured some nice throwbacks to previous games (the Eye of Innos, Sleeper memorabilia, etc.), the troglodytes were creepy as hell (a feeling Gothic 3 was not able to conjure in me)... I could go on. Hell, even the shopping quest was interesting - it allowed us to see how the world is recovering from the war, people returning to their everyday lives. It was nice.
I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone here, but seriously, I enjoyed the game a lot, and I find it a little confusing more people didn't. Is this a classic case of radical fan-boyism? Just a guess.
The only two things I didn't like is the birdman quest (what the hell?) and the way the super secret mega armour looked (almost sci-fi). The last boss could've used some more imaginative design, but it wasn't too bad.
Anyway, that's my two cents. Feel free to share your comments on why it's so horrible, I'm honestly interested in what you hated about the game.

The setup wasn't necessarily bad. To be honest, I can't really think of any other way to have taken the story, given that the whole point of Gothic 3 was that the Hero banished the gods to allow the civilized races to be free of the warmongering influence of the Gods. But I despised the characters as they were written and acted. The progression of the story was so dull and senseless that I really don't even remember what happened. I only recall that somehow Thorus decided he was going to summon a demon, and we stopped it and suddenly became king.

The quests were so dull and in many cases absurdly stupid. I recall one quest where a character tells you to go kill a small group of people who are not sworn to any faction. If I'm remembering right, the Hero decided they deserved to die because they weren't willing to fight for a cause - never mind that their cause was that they didn't want people to fight. Of course, once you met the people, you could decide to spare them and help them, but it was still a really stupid bit of dialog. I also recall the Hero being arrested at Gotha, for some reason, and you were forced to "hard labor" for about ten minutes before they let you go free.
The first few quests you get in the game are absolutely dumbfounding as well. Anog laments that he can't trust you to bring peace to Myrtana after the state the Hero left it in a decade earlier, yet he is perfectly willing to support you once you run a couple errands for people around town. Oh, and those errands include decimating one farmer's entire livestock to fulfill the spite of another. Because that's the ideal way to help the community recover from the war.

I did enjoy the setting a bit more in ways that you stated - the looming presence of war, battle lines drawn between Gotha and Montera, trying to help people recover from the effects of the war, and so on. But the whole sense of things was ruined just by the actual plot development and the quests involved. The Hero was a staunch advocate for peace, and wanted to lead everybody there, apparently believing nobody else was capable of it. And yet, he was incredibly willy nilly about killing people at any NPC's insistence. His character made no sense. It also contrasted heavily between his personality of the previous games (which there was precious little of in Gothic 3, but still) and also the amount of choice we had in how to play the Hero in Gothic 3. He turned into a self-righteous douche who still couldn't make a single decision on his own.

It was nice that the writers managed to bring back a few bits of lore and story from the older games, which made me feel like the developers (some random and shady Indian studio who now focus on mobile games, if I did my research correctly) actually studied the games in surprising depth. Yet it was clear to me that whoever wrote it knew how he wanted the story to end, but had no idea how to give us enough game to reach that ending and feel satisfied. I loathed every single minute of the journey.

Let's also not forget that the game released in a far, far worse state than Gothic 3 did on launch. I've never experienced a game so unplayable. The first thing I learned how to do was duplicate weapons, because all I had to do was sheathe my weapon and another one would appear on the ground, like magic. Except if I tried to pick it up, the game would crash. And if I tried to talk to people, the game would crash. And if I tried to sprint, the game would crash, probably because it couldn't load the scenery fast enough. I don't think I was ever able to run the game for more than 15 minutes at a time. I remember swords floating in the air and talking to me, because the NPC carrying it was invisible. The NPC AI and pathfinding was somehow so much worse than Gothic 3. The combat was every bit as dull - the only change I remember is that you couldn't LMB spam as freely because your stamina actually mattered for a change.
The only reason I'm even aware of how poorly designed the game was, beyond the technical disasters, is because JoWood (with bankruptcy looming after Arcania) cut a deal with Mad Vulture Games to patch the everloving shit out of it and sell it as the Enhanced Edition (which I dearly wish they'd done with Gothic 3, because if that's what Mad Vulture could do with real funding and access to source code, then Gothic 3 would be flawless by now). That was probably JoWood's only good decision in their lifetime, but even then, everything else about the design of the game was such a huge disappointment to me. I enjoyed nothing about it.

Except, now you've got me tempted to try it again. Lots of my subscribers ask for it, for some reason, so maybe I'll give it a live stream and see what comes of it.

[Grimmwulf]

I think Forsaken Gods was better than Gothic 3. Fight me IRL.
No, seriously, the game was a nice continuation to Xardas' ending, it featured several character returning in major roles (Thorus leading the orcs, Lee settling down after his revenge arc, the rebel brothers trying to protect simple people from the civil war), it had actual factions fighting for control of Myrtana (political intrigue, which Gothic 3 severely lacked), the plot was clear and had a concrete storyline (instead of find Xardas -> liberate towns -> talk to god -> end slideshow), the game featured some nice throwbacks to previous games (the Eye of Innos, Sleeper memorabilia, etc.), the troglodytes were creepy as hell (a feeling Gothic 3 was not able to conjure in me)... I could go on. Hell, even the shopping quest was interesting - it allowed us to see how the world is recovering from the war, people returning to their everyday lives. It was nice.
I'm not forcing my opinion on anyone here, but seriously, I enjoyed the game a lot, and I find it a little confusing more people didn't. Is this a classic case of radical fan-boyism? Just a guess.
The only two things I didn't like is the birdman quest (what the hell?) and the way the super secret mega armour looked (almost sci-fi). The last boss could've used some more imaginative design, but it wasn't too bad.
Anyway, that's my two cents. Feel free to share your comments on why it's so horrible, I'm honestly interested in what you hated about the game.

The namless hero has a very rougish kind of personality, and is a rugged practical realist with a snide wit. This is why I prefer to play him as a mercenary who stays true to his fellow ex-cons from the penal colony. Even if you join the paladins or the fire mages in G2, the nameless hero retains his rougish personality rather than becoming genuinely devout and lawful (he dons the holy robe/armor as a means to an end only). This changes in Forsaken Gods though; the nameless hero no longer has his distinct personality. Instead he seems like a bland "self-righteous douche", as Morgannin pointed out.

I only played Forsaken Gods for a few hours though, then abandoned it due to a lack of interest and the countless bugs.

[Maladiq]

Mad Vulture team, iirc, is the community patch team, and they had access to all the source code and developer tools, JW gave it to them during the last patches, in the hopes of fixing G3 good enough to sell. Or maybe I am mistaken.

[Morgannin09]

Mad Vulture team, iirc, is the community patch team, and they had access to all the source code and developer tools, JW gave it to them during the last patches, in the hopes of fixing G3 good enough to sell. Or maybe I am mistaken.

You're absolutely right, the whole Community Patch project was the Mad Vulture team. But JoWood only hired them on to fix Forsaken Gods, so they never acquired the tools for Gothic 3, which is probably why they stopped updating it. It's a shame JoWood didn't also sign them on to iron out the problems that still plague Gothic 3 after all these years.

On an unrelated note, does anyone else have trouble loading up some of the threads in this forum? This thread in particular keeps crashing almost immediately after it starts loading, and most of the time when I post a reply, the page will crash (or whatever the technical term is) immediately after my post goes through. The only way I can get this thread to open is to periodically refresh it over the course of a few hours. Might be a problem with Chrome.

[Morgannin09]

I was reading an article on Cracked about the disastrous game Daikatana, and one part at the end kind of stood out to me as relevant to this "marketing scheme" that we keep whining about:


If you keep a project relatively secret, you can make as many changes as you need to ensure the final product turns out good -- that's why Cracked's new rap label is evolving nicely. Zach worked on one game where they changed the main character a third of the way through production. They had to throw out a bunch of hard work, but it was necessary to improve the final product. But once you've announced, say, four time periods and dozens of monsters, you're committed to delivering them. As Zach explains:

"Once you have the people with their money spend their marketing dollars, they see that as a commitment. Especially since games have become much more expensive to market. It's become even more essential that you have a very clear message, and you're not going to have people spend their time promoting something too soon."

Obviously, the pendulum can swing too far the other way, as Deep Silver did with Risen 3 - the game was hardly advertised at all, even up to release. But it also stands to reason that we won't hear anything on PB's next game until they've got something damn good to show for it. This disaster happened in Gothic 3 as well, which barely turned out as advertised, as we all know.

[Maladiq]

Oh, another Cracked fan? :D I think it would benefit them to just say: Guys, we are working on Risen 4. Let's talk about this, wanna free climb? Want more pirates? etc.

[warstrike]

I was reading an article on Cracked about the disastrous game Daikatana, and one part at the end kind of stood out to me as relevant to this "marketing scheme" that we keep whining about:


This disaster happened in Gothic 3 as well, which barely turned out as advertised, as we all know.

No way ,i don't think that. I think Gothic 3 was their most advertised game as far as i remember.It was a pleasure to read the website and the news.Reading about creating of the world and stuff.

I think the problem was the bad decisions they made (see lack of chapters ,broke combat system,change of magic ) ,in-house built engine which lead to thousands of bugs and of course the pressure of the fans and publisher .Up to this day ,i haven't been so hyped about a game as i was 10 years ago for Gothic 3.

[Morgannin09]

No way ,i don't think that. I think Gothic 3 was their most advertised game as far as i remember.It was a pleasure to read the website and the news.Reading about creating of the world and stuff.

I think the problem was the bad decisions they made (see lack of chapters ,broke combat system,change of magic ) ,in-house built engine which lead to thousands of bugs and of course the pressure of the fans and publisher .Up to this day ,i haven't been so hyped about a game as i was 10 years ago for Gothic 3.

What I'm talking about specifically is how much they hyped up the game, before realizing the game couldn't turn out as planned. A lot of features didn't make it, the game only looked half as good and ran half as well as it should have, and none of us were satisfied with the story or the combat system. If JoWood had waited patiently, figured out what the game was going to be, and made reasonable promises based on the game's progress, the game might not have released with quite as much fanfare, but the expectations wouldn't have been out of this world.

[Maladiq]

Gothic 3 was supposed to be just as advertised. Unfortunately it didn't get there because of the time constraints. They bit off more than they could have chewed in that limited amount of time and JW didn't grant them a longer development time.

And yes, I remember nerdgasming about G3 with my cousin back in the day. That is how I discovered WoP and WoG, by looking for news about G3, and then.... a whole collection Gothic 3 videos, interviews, gameplay vides just popped up and we spent a couple of hours drooling over them. And then I discovered the G3 website with the dev diary and spent all my high-school computer classes translating those... :D

[Dino]

Up to this day ,i haven't been so hyped about a game as i was 10 years ago for Gothic 3.

I second that. Holy shit the suspense was killing me.

[foobar]

Gothic 3 was supposed to be just as advertised. Unfortunately it didn't get there because of the time constraints. They bit off more than they could have chewed in that limited amount of time and JW didn't grant them a longer development time.

I have my doubts about that. Sure, time was a factor. But Jowood, even with their backs against the wall (financially speaking), still gave PB six more months to finish the products. Let’s not forget that. And PB still couldn’t deliver. No publisher will grant extensions indefinitely because no one has unlimited money.

But that point aside: G3, even if it had been given all the time in the world, would never ever have been what most people expected. What I – and based on my observations most other people in the forum – wanted, was a “Gothic 2 XXL”. Basically the same game, just larger and with more options (shields and dual-wield and more spells and more armor and more guilds, that sort of thing). That is what we expected and that is the picture the marketing painted. Some information was considered problematic (like when they announced that there would be no chapters). But PB promised that (quote) “Gothic will stay Gothic” and we shouldn’t worry. And I, for one, believed them because their track record so far had been quite good.

But after release, we learned that G3 was never meant to be that game we expected. They wanted to castrate the combat and skill system. They wanted to avoid complex quest and story design (like the first chapter of G2, which, to this very day, I consider one the prime examples of RPG quest design). I remember Mike Hoge admitting only after release that they wanted to open Gothic to a wider demographic (read: go mass-market). And that they wanted to cater to people who couldn’t be bothered with all that complicated quest stuff and intricate stories. Who did not want to build their character before they could take on powerful enemies. People who (quote) “just wanted to fire up the game and beat up a bunch of orcs”. That was always the true target demographic of Gothic 3.

People tend to forget that and keep imagining this Über-Gothic we would have gotten if only Jowood had grown a pair and given PB more time. The ugly truth however is that this was never the plan. The fundamental game design was exactly as PB intended it from the beginning. With more time, they might have ironed out more bugs and maybe gotten more NPC models (especially ones with hair) and stuff like that. But G3 was always meant to be something of an Offline-MMORPG.

So yeah, the marketing hyped the game good. But it also betrayed the loyal fanbase. Not sure if I really want that.

[Dino]

So yeah, the marketing hyped the game good. But it also betrayed the loyal fanbase. Not sure if I really want that.

When money speaks loyalty remains mute.

That's how I see the case with Gothic 3. It felt like PB didn't give a shit what the core fanbase wanted.

[The Ore Baron]

I don't mean to sound like a smart-ass, but I knew Gothic 3 was going to be shit from the moment I saw the very first screenshots. It was obvious they were pumping most of their funds into graphics (naturally disregarding everything else) and 'hurr large open world' was an instant no-no to me, since I was sure they weren't going to manage filling it with interesting content.

Then it came out, and I was still disappointed, even though I wasn't expecting anything :dnuhr:

So I don't really buy the whole "they ran out of time" stuff. Their priorities were not in order, methinks, and giving them more time would not have resulted in a much better game.

EDIT: read Foobar's post again, now I feel dumb, since I just repeated what he said :D

[Morgannin09]

I certainly agree with that, I've never denied that Gothic 3 would not have surpassed Gothic II simply due to its intended design direction. The storytelling suffered greatly from its intended openness, which thankfully PB seemed to have learned from - in many ways the Risen games still have terrible writing, but the games still put you in a forward progression where more quests open up and the world seems to respond to it - scripted, sure, but it still feels more organic than Gothic 3 or any of the Elder Scrolls, where nothing ever changes despite your monumental achievements.
But that brings me to another point of the legitimate false advertisement: I recall in a preview in a magazine, how they talked about Gothic 3's choices and how the world changed heavily based on anything you did, using a metaphor like "A butterfly flaps its wings in Nordmar, and so an uprising fails in Myrtana." Obviously an exaggerated description no matter what, but the bottom line is the game we got hardly had such dynamic consequences to your decisions - the only time that really happened was if you pissed off a faction so much that they would kill you on sight, effectively making the game unplayable anyway.
There's more to it than that, and I'd touch on it if I wasn't groggy and delirious for waking up at the crack of dawn, but this is one of the more egregious examples of misrepresentation of their product.

So, no, Gothic 3 would not have changed the world, and it did betray the desires of the core fanbase in a way that didn't work to its benefit as far as anyone was concerned. But they definitely got carried away with what they promised the game could do. Both JoWood and Piranha Bytes, really. Neither of them were really big enough to compete with The Elder Scrolls and Bethesda, and yet they really advertised themselves as trying to blow those games out of the water by doing what they did even better. Whether by lack of talent, misguided direction, or limited budget, they genuinely screwed the pooch on it, and at least 50% of the reason people hated it is because the game wasn't everything they told us it would be. It would have been a pretty standard, solid RPG if it was finished and fully realized - not the Gothic sequel we wanted, surely, and overall would have been unsatisfying by comparison to the classic fanbase, but I do feel that the disastrous reception for Gothic 3 could have been mitigated by not embellishing its expectations.

[Maladiq]

People tend to forget that and keep imagining this Über-Gothic we would have gotten if only Jowood had grown a pair and given PB more time. The ugly truth however is that this was never the plan. The fundamental game design was exactly as PB intended it from the beginning. With more time, they might have ironed out more bugs and maybe gotten more NPC models (especially ones with hair) and stuff like that. But G3 was always meant to be something of an Offline-MMORPG.

So yeah, the marketing hyped the game good. But it also betrayed the loyal fanbase. Not sure if I really want that.

Well, I know it was not a matter of growing balls. PB were just visionaries, while JW were going belly up, more time would have been impossible. The problem was that they bit off more than they could chew. It was JW's responsability to do a trimming of the ideas.

I never knew Mike said that, about opening to a broader category of players. But despite this, Gothic 3 had all the pieces of the puzzle and could have been amazing. It had passion, it had ideas. Take R2 for example: it just doesn't feel like anybody doing it was emotionally involved in the project. They just did it to pay the bills.

Case and point: Kai was nerdgasming over the orchestra, Sascha is still dreamming about those dunes in Varant (while we still watch in amazement the level design of Nordmar), the guys were modeling houses and were eager to show their work, while Mike was planning orcish invasions into villages.

Sure, there were crappy aspects about G3, but goddamn it had passion behind it. And you could still feel that passion in R1. Then... it just went away.

Meh, maybe it is just about Kai leaving. As Epic Rap Battles of History put it, half of Spielberg's millions should go to John Williams.

Or maybe it's Bjoern. I always had the feeling Mike was the dreamer, the one with great ideas, and Bjoern was the analitical one, who could get the work done instead of getting carried away. Before Bjoern joined PB they didn't even manage to finish the main story (6 months before realease they had to re-write it from scrap afaik).

Oh, and let's not forget Ralf: he and Mike were an amazing concept team.

Almost all the great creative people left: Mattias, Mike, Ralf, Kai, and creating a good game concept is just not a one-man job, no matter how good or well intented Bjoern is.

[foobar]

Adding sources:

Here is my translation of Mike’s original post after G3 was released and the shitstorm came.


One thing first: We did not jump on the “We-want-to-make-a-quick-buck-and-fool-all-the-fans” bandwagon.
That G3 was unfinished at release is shit. That people now complain about it is warranted. We knew that G3 would not be bug-free but we underestimated the amount of problems we would still have in the goldmaster version.
We believed we could make a complete game with a few bugs to the goldmaster date and surely fix those few bugs with patch 1.
Unfortunately, it only happened with patch 2 and even if that one should fix most of the known bugs so far, a lot of fans will still be disappointed.

We intentionally tried to open Gothic 3 to a wider demographic. That caused some changes in the design which many fans consider to be a worsening, even though those are “just” changes.
Some examples:
- no guild membership but more free playing
- large, free, non-linear world in which cities can be played in any order but one-time visits instead of returning and finding new quests all the time
- quests lie in the world and are not hung on NPCs
- new weapon configurations instead of new combat animations
More details to that in later posts
- Some AI reactions on city level instead of NPC level (e.g. reactions to theft, murder)

This kind of changes would probably have been accepted by the majority had it not been for the technical errors (which should be fixed for the most part by now).

1. Generally bad tuning (items, NPC values, combat)
2. Important characters are badly presented

The tuning has been improved with patch 2, also the crossbow shooting has been completely redesigned (that thing was basically unusable before) but we still need time to get a handle on the melee combat system.

The story is IMHO nothing more than:
“The dragons have come, find out who their leader is” (Gothic 2)
The problem in G3 is, as far as I’m concerned, the density. We intentionally let ourselves into a “thinner distribution”. But we also gave important characters too few dialogues to compensates for that. We indeed lacked the time to fix that in the end.

We will definitely not try to break our backs with such a large world in the future.

That’s all from me for now, I’ll now try to answer the questions.



Now that you have the complete post with all the context, I’m going to comment on a few excerpts:



Mike;2562487']
We intentionally tried to open Gothic 3 to a wider demographic.


Translation: We wanted more mainstream.



even though those are “just” changes.


To turn Gothic into Tetris would also require nothing but “just” changes.



- no guild membership but more free playing


I wrote about the so-called freedom in G3 before many times, so let me be brief here: That is only passive freedom. Freedom from something. That, however, you can get cheaper by not buying the game at all. What people actually want is active freedom. Freedom to (do) something. Like joining a guild, if they so desire.



- large, free, non-linear world in which cities can be played in any order but one-time visits instead of returning and finding new quests all the time in return


What has one to do with the other? Had they kept the chapters and an intricate story, they could have had both. Cities in any order and returning to them later on. Back in the day, I even made a story draft for G3 to show that you could take the game almost completely as it is (without major changes in it’s fundamental design) and still have a good story. In that draft, it was also planned to return later even though you had the freedom to visit all cities in any order before.

So there’s no causal relationship here. It’s like saying: You don’t get oranges and in return the moon is round.



- quests lie in the world and are not hung on NPCs


With that he probably means that you can complete the quest to kill the 5 wolves for the shepherd without ever having actually talked to the Shepard. And still get a reward afterwards. The wolves are already there and are not spawned only when you talk to the shepherd. Can make sense in some cases, can be problematic in others. It’s not really what was fundamentally wrong with G3.



- new weapon configurations instead of new combat animations
More details to that in later posts


Who cares about that? More combat animations are nice if I can get them but did anyone actually complain that G3 did not have enough of them and that this was the big problem of the game?

Well, my problem was something different. Hint: It was located on the narrative layer.

BTW: I don’t think those promised details actually came. But I don’t want to search the entire forum archive to make sure. So let’s leave it at: I don’t recall hearing about that from PB again.



- Some AI reactions on city level instead of NPC level (e.g. reactions to theft, murder)


Huh? If I killed someone in Khorinis or stole from someone or beat someone up, almost the entire city wouldn’t talk to me anymore. So they had city-level reactions before. The only difference is: It made sense in G2. In G3, everyone knew you were the culprit even if no one saw you do it. Which practically made the career choice of thief impossible to play. What was that about freedom of play again?

And how does this explain the problems with the story?



This kind of changes would probably have been accepted by the majority had it not been for the technical errors (which should be fixed for the most part by now).


Some yes, others no. Losing chapters and guild membership and certain play types (thief) was a heavy blow. I only hoped that the rest of the game would make up for it. Which it didn’t.



1. Generally bad tuning (items, NPC values, combat)
2. Important characters are badly presented


The first point is kind of annoying but no mood killer for me.

The second goes in the right direction but completely misses the core of the issue. The characters were presented badly because the story was so thin and little more than a fig-leaf. I wrote that before: If you don’t tell a story, the characters automatically become pale. What else are they supposed to do on the stage that PB built them? If there is no play being performed, the actors have no choice but to stare holes in the air and pick their noses.



The story is IMHO nothing more than:
“The dragons have come, find out who their leader is” (Gothic 2)


Well, at least he didn’t try to compare it to the story of G1, which was definitely a more complex concept.

But: Lord of the Rings is also basically nothing but “throw this ring in that volcano”. And Hamlet is nothing but “avenge your daddy”. I can always reduce any story to a few key sentences and then show that once everything is cut off, not much remains. But that’s not really a big revelation.

There’s more than one way to flesh out a raw concept into an actual story. What was necessary for the completion of G2? Off the top of my head: Gain access to the city, gain access to the upper quarter, join a guild, go to the mine valley, find the missing prospectors, bring the report to Lord Hagen. Find the stolen eye, repair it (for which you need to uncover a murder plot and free Bennet), go back to the mine valley, kill the four dragons (each in his own little mini-climate zone). Solve the mystery about Irdorath, go into the cellar of the cloister. Gather a crew, get a ship, sail to the island. Fight through a riddle-dungeon and then deal with the endboss. And that doesn’t even count the content of the add-on.

And the whole time, you stumbled up to 4 times over your old friends, could talk to them, learn new things (e.g. Gorn: first meeting in the castle in the mine valley, then on Onar’s farm, then back in the mine valley and then back at the farm again. Plus he joined you on Irdorath.)

And what’s necessary to complete G3? Find Xardas, find the artifacts, liberate the forge, throw the artifacts in it, follow Xardas to a large boulder in the middle of nowhere.

Anyone spotting any differences?


What I learned from that post was that most of the really bad things about G3 were intentional. Note how he says that the second patch practically fixed the game (made it as they wanted it to be), except for a few combat tweaks, a few missing dialogue lines and maybe some yet undiscovered or minor bugs.

Here’s another quote that confirms that:

Mike;2577747']
1 - Did Gothic III turn out like you imagined it?

In many aspects: Yes!

The main critique points which I have for myself (I’m repeating myself but that’s because of the questions)
1. Bad tuning
2. Main characters don’t talk enough
3. Unbelievable “ending” - which therefore must not be the end!


Again, he says that the first and foremost problem of G3 was the balancing. And only after that, he slightly touches the narrative layer by saying there should have been more dialogues. But quest design? Story complexity? Setting plausibility? Verisimilitude? Active freedom? Immersion? Nothing wrong with G3 on these fronts!

Don’t get me wrong. I give Mike high credit for coming into the forum in the middle of a shitstorm, taking a stance and explaining himself. That was very commendable and even if I wasn’t really satisfied with his answers, I still think seeking communication with the fans was the right move and the first step to mending the damaged relationship between fans and developer.

But I also think that many of his arguments are non-sequiturs and most of it is the kind of information customers deserve to get before purchase.


The quote about beating up some orcs was taken from this interview (http://www.worldofgothic.de/gothic/links_cat4.htm?go=interview16) which was conducted after the release.


Was wir versucht haben, ist natürlich, mit dem Spiel in die Richtung zu gehen, dass wir es einer größeren Zielgruppe zugänglich machen. Sprich auch Leute, die mit dem ganzen Gothic-Scheiß nichts zu tun hatten, sollten einfach mal das Spiel starten können, ein paar Orks verkloppen können und daran Spaß haben.


Which translates to:



What we tried was, of course, to go in a direction that would open it [the game] to a wider demographic. Meaning even people who didn’t have anything to do with the whole Gothic crap should be able to just start the game, beat up some orcs and have fun with it.


I’m not sure I share the sentiment of calling Gothic “crap” but it’s what he said. But it’s possible he was just paraphrasing, so let’s not lynch him for that, shall we? ;)


The bottom line is that on several occasions, PB confirmed that G3 was more or less the way it was supposed to be. And given more time, we might have gotten a better balancing, maybe a few more dialogue lines and perhaps a cutscene ending instead of billboards or something like that.



As for Björn: I don’t really know the guy. I talked to him only a few times and I doubt he would even remember me. He may be more pragmatic but I doubt he doesn’t have any visions or passion. You don’t choose a career as game developer if your heart isn’t into it. There are easier ways to make money. So I think everyone who works in game development does so because it’s about more than money for them and they want to express themselves artistically. That means visions and passions. Björn may just have an easier time to reign in his passion. But I can’t say for sure because I don’t know either of them well enough for a comparison.

What I disagree with is the notion of some parts of the community that Mike is this creative genius who is personally responsible for everything that PB did right and that Björn is the passionless bully who is responsible for everything that PB did wrong. G2, for instance, is also in large parts Björn’s accomplishment. You rarely do people justice by labelling them.

[Maladiq]

1. Why I say Mike has a great vision (can't talk for the others): the quality discrpancy between Risen 1 and 2. Of course Bjoern has the passion, since he still wears that necklace, but I just don't think he can create a coherent universe (not that Gothic was one, but at least it had feeling. I would compare PB with Pink Floyd: the spark was set by the first guys who ended up having nothing to do with the game (like Syd), Mike was the Roger Waters of the team, coming up with ideas, but Bjoern was the David Gilmour of the team, a more technical person who kept things done isntead of going full-conceptual. I think they did great work together, but once the split appeared, the work was just not on genius level.

2. Indeed, kudos to Mike for having the balls to come into the forum after the fiasco. I didn't know he said those things, but one thing is for certain, he nailed Risen 1 and learned from his mistakes. The only problem with it was that it was too cautious and it didn't reach its full potential. It could have with the sequels, but it never did.

3. Now you made me really curious about your story outline for G3 :p

4. As for the passion, I do think it is gone for most part. Indeed, it's easier to create something when you don't worry about children and family, and as I recall, during the development for G1 all they did was eat crap and talk about the game for 18 hours a day.


5. I really hope that even if DS is the publisher, they are working on a new IP. I really am curious about what Bjoern would do if he had to create a universe from 0, maybe even something non-medieval. But as long as they intentionally make game design choices such as invisible walls, provisions and that crappy combat system, I really don't have a lot of hope. At least Mike admitted he was wrong and went back to the roots.

[foobar]

3. Now you made me really curious about your story outline for G3 :p

Oh boy. That old thing? Let me dust it off. *cough* Can you still see me?

Keep in mind that this is something I came up with on October 20th, 2006, in the time it took me to bake and eat a pizza, so it’s just a concept. A story outline. And the basic idea was to keep as much of the game as it was (landmasses, NPCs, etc.) and just try to find a way to put a nice story onto that.

So, we’ll take the same basic setting we have in G3: The war is lost, the orcs control Myrtana, Rhobar is trapped behind a magic barrier and so on. It might help if you threw out a few cities and made the rest of them bigger, but it’s not necessary.

So we arrive in Myrtana and don’t get the story served on a silver platter. We need to investigate and find out what’s actually going on (explore the setting premise, see above). After a while, we know the lay of the land and decide to help the humans against the orcs (optional alternative: see below). Why should you? Well, the orcs could be after you for what you did on Irdorath and you’ll only ever be safe if you remove them from Myrtana (or suck up to them in the alternate scenario).

Now, Gothic was always a bit grittier than other games and you’re not a paladin in shining armour. You’re a convict. An escaped criminal with dry humour and not a lot of respect for the establishment. So you don’t go to Vengard to crawl up Rhobar’s ass. Besides, he was defeated and is trapped in a besieged city. Not much he can do anyway.

So who else can help? Well, there’s Lee. He’s an experienced general and has proven he can get shit done. He knows about war and leading armies and all that. So if anyone has the skill to kick the orcs in their collective butts, it’s him. Also, he still wants revenge for what Rhobar did to him. And the king is not going to stick his head out while the orcs are still around. So Lee has two good reasons to take up the fight: Defending his home and revenge for being thrown into the colony.

But what’s a general without an army? Lee will need one. Where to find one without stealing it? How about Nordmar? The barbarians there are tough, resilient, know how to kill orcs and and are not yet subjugated. And they would probably like to free their homeland and get some payback from the orcs.

But if the people of Nordmar could do it, why haven’t they done it already? Well, maybe because the clans are disunited and quarrelling among each other. So they never came together to form a force that could actually threaten the orcs. Someone like Lee or the NH might have a chance of changing that because no one can accuse them of taking sides - they’re outsiders. This provides the task for the first chapter: Unite the clans! Now you have a motivation to do all the little jobs and quests in Nordmar. You need to gain their trust if you want them to follow you into war. You should also liberate the big forge because ore swords might come in handy during the war.

So now you got the clans to join forces. But they can’t free Myrtana while they have the orcs on their own doorsteps. So the next chapter is: Free Nordmar. With all the jobs that this kind work entails.

Now we’re ready for Myrtana. But the orcs hold the cities and one man on the wall is worth as much as ten before it. So what can we do to avoid casualties we can’t afford? Well, we could use the rebels. Maybe they’re not only sitting in the forest but also hiding in the cities under the noses of the orcs. Kind of like a resistance. They disguise themselves as citizens or hide in the sewers (like the Thieves Guild in Khorinis) where the orcs don’t go because they’re too big, and honourable warriors who don’t wade through morrer-shit. And we need the help of this resistance. They will have to support our assault through acts of sabotage and assassination.

And you need to gain their trust, so again, we have a motivation to actually do all the quests that are more or less in place already. And perhaps you can also help the rebels with other things. Maybe here you need to steal the key for the city gate so they can open it in the night and let the Nordmar army in. Maybe there you need to organise the schedule of the guards so that the slaves who bring them their food can poison the correct shift. That kind of thing. But to do all that, you need to be able to move freely among the orcs. Which explains why you have to gain their trust and do their quests.

This concludes the third chapter and it also gives Lee time to prepare his army. Forge swords, train troops, organise supplies, a lot of things that he might occasionally need your help with as well. So there’s quest potential in that, too.

Now we could theoretically launch the offensive. But what if the battle is well underway and then the orcs get help from somewhere? Like the assassins of Varant. Why would they help the orcs? Well, they both pray to the same god. And they’re into slavery. Both of which Lee and/or Rhobar will probably not like once they have control of the continent. Then the shrines to Beliar will burn and the lucrative slave trade will be crippled. So it is in the assassin’s best interest to lend the orcs a hand.

This is a risk that Lee cannot afford to take and hence, you have to go to Varant and help the Nomads defeat the assassins. Same as before, motivation for their quests. And another chapter.

And now we can finally take back Myrtana. With a lot of potential stuff to do. Cut off enemy supply lines and fortify your own, assassinate orc leaders, interrogate prisoners, spread false information, evacuate civilians, do recon behind enemy lines, etc. etc. Lots of really cool quests could be made from that, which would also reflect the pace picking up as we near the end of the game.

Theoretically, that can be all there is. Once you have freed Myrtana, you have practically done enough to justify a nice ending right then and there. But we could also go and add another confrontation, maybe with Zuben and/or a Beliar avatar or something like that. Add this whole idea of “the decider” and banishing the gods after that or don’t. It isn’t really necessary, the story should work either way.


And the whole story can be reversed if you want to support the orcs instead. Then Lee already has his Nordmar army and the only hope for the orcs is help from Varant. So you are sent there to defeat the Nomads, then wipe the rebels from Myrtana and finally conquer Nordmar and crush the human opposition for good.



Well, that was basically the idea. An intricate story with somewhat clear character motivation, 6-7 possible chapters and a plot that encompasses the entire available game world. That would have been a Gothic 3 I would have loved to play. Fuck balancing! ;)

[Maladiq]

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q17/surveyor3/13924742111596534766_zps5pdkjdfk.gif

Congratulations, you just won yourself a groupie :p

Now, if I may ask, why the hell are you losing your time here instead of partaking in the CSP?

[foobar]

Now, if I may ask, why the hell are you losing your time here instead of partaking in the CSP?

Are they even still around? I seem to remember that there was such a project and then it was disbanded or something. But people kept mentioning it occasionally, so I didn’t know if I hadn’t gotten the memo or them. Basically, while I still had an active interest in G3, there was no CSP. And then I moved on. They didn’t contact me and I didn’t actively pursue it.

Besides, while it may be nice to imagine them crawling to me, begging me to join them and letting them bask in my brilliance, I think they probably have their own ideas and concepts of how to add a story to G3. I highly doubt they just want to be the coding monkeys who implement what someone else thought up.

[Maladiq]

Besides, while it may be nice to imagine them crawling to me, begging me to join them and letting them bask in my brilliance, I think they probably have their own ideas and concepts of how to add a story to G3. I highly doubt they just want to be the coding monkeys who implement what someone else thought up.
Now that is a straw-man if I ever saw one.

Yes, the CSP is still alive and working hard, they published some new materials on their website. Also, looks like Herr liked your idea.


I believe I read his idea back then in 2006 in German or maybe something very similar with more utopian points ( from a G3 Editing possibility point of view ) like more cities. Back then it was one of the reasons I get excited
when Impidimpi wanted to found the CSP, so it was one of the reasons I joined this project.


Well, no matter when this mod comes out, I will play the hell out of it. The wait is worth it.

[TrueCore]

Yes we're still around and not dead. It proofs again that no one and yes I really mean no one looks at signatures in a board. :p There are so many great ideas out there for Gothic 3, if we want to implement all of them the project's release date will be the 5th December 3245. So sorry we have to focus on some ideas and the main story line is finalized (not completly implemented) for a few years now. We're giving our best to release the CSP in this century. ;)

[Maladiq]

Indeed, you worked too hard now to just redisign the mod. But trust me, I can't wait for it to come out and play it. Thanks for all the hard work :gratz

[foobar]

It proofs again that no one and yes I really mean no one looks at signatures in a board. :p

I’ve disabled them completely. Because a lot of people use big images, bright colours and even animations in them. If there was a way to say: “Show signatures: Text only”, I’d go for that. I really don’t like large images in sigs. They distract me from the flow of the discussion, which – for me – is often hard enough to follow. ;)


There are so many great ideas out there for Gothic 3, if we want to implement all of them the project's release date will be the 5th December 3245.

At least you’d be following the tradition of the original. :p

[Maladiq]

It's not that you can't do games any cheaper - you can :) But don't expect to play with the big boys then ;) Just to give you an estimation: you can calculate anything between 5500 and 8500 euros per capita and month in a development company. Not that everyone EARNS that much (stop dreaming :D) no - but these are the costs in which software licenses and IT infrastructure, food, rental space, logistics, your christmas party with open bar and everything else you can imagine (including the paycheque) is included. Now take this times the number of employees and you get something like between 2.3 or 3.6 mio euros burnrate PER MONTH for such a big team.

Multiply this by the numbers of months to produce such a game (15-18months) and you're at a whoppin' 40-50+ mio investment just for a developer like Crytek for the whole project as the worst case. You can then of course save some money by not allocating all people at once (you will have low staff at the beginning and at the end of the development time) so you might get it down to like 30 :) The only problem left: You haven't accounted a budget for motion capture, voice over, translation, render cutscenes, etc.



Oh yeah and don't forget the roughly 15-20 mio for the marketing and another heap of cash for production. If you're talking console games, you can calculate with 20-30 mio eur to account for your production unit to make your game fit for one or maybe two platforms if you're lucky.

So roughly 60 mio (in words sixty million - which is the lower end of my estimations) would set you up with a AAA title in the international market. Pretty scary huh?


I wonder what budget PB has, given that they invested almost 0 money in marketing. Also, I wonder if these numbers for the Witcher 3 budget are still relevant: doberlec was pretty skeptical about it, but apparently a AAA title with a massive world can be developed for 15 mio, not 50.

[Maladiq]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McI_PbjqWsg

First 15 minutes of The Witcher 3.

Well, the cutscenes tend to take away from the immersion at times, yet they are made well enough to be entertaining.

The combat system seems a combination of Risen 1 (in terms of timing and speed) and Risen 3 (in terms of animation style). I like it. I think Risen 3's combat system greatest weakness was the fact that the animations were slow. In Risen 4 they should give maximum speed from the start, and with upgrades just add new moves and combos. As I said before, the R1 combat with the dirty tricks would be an amazing melee system.

What I deeply dislike is the finishing move cutscenes. They break the immersion. At least don't change the POV while they are executed.

Holy crap, the atmosphere is amazing! The large open spaces, full of dead bodies, burned huts and monsters. It has an ominous feeling about it. It seems like a combination of G2 and G3. It is amazing! And the world is so dense, full of settlements, bandits, ruins and paths. Take a good look at this, PB!

Unfortunately, the climbing feels scripted, but the design of the climbable areas makes up for it a little.

Look at all those people with their routines! And just listen to them talk! It's great. Risen 3 had this, but it just didn't feel at the level of G2. And that little settlement is bigger than a lot of main locations in R2 and R3. The world breaths life.

Also, the magic system seems really well done.

[rotator]

One "fun" fact is that one of the developers just stated the final Witcher 3 being severely downgraded compared to the 2013 version, because of the (relatively) weak nextnextgen consoles. Ever heard something like that before? :P

[The Ore Baron]

I love that Vesemir is returning in a more major role. Will be nice to hear Diego's voice throughout the game.

[catalinux]

In the last days I've been obsesed with TW3. I think this might be the greatest RPG game since G1. The open world is huge, no loading screens, no invisible walls, the towns are real towns, with hundreds of NPCs and houses, you can actually sail to islands, the ship is destructible, you have a horse and it is like a companion, in a lot of videos I've seen people getting attached to that horse, the magic is nice, the melee combat is ok, and it has stuffed unicorns.

Conan did a great review of TW3.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfjLRuE1CLw

[Grimmwulf]

Conan did a great review of TW3.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfjLRuE1CLw

I'd definitely take that 'review' with a grain of salt. He's a professional entertainer and comedian who was paid to make it look fun. ;)

[catalinux]

I'd definitely take that 'review' with a grain of salt. He's a professional entertainer and comedian who was paid to make it look fun. ;)

More than fun, I'd say...

Well, the review that really made me to be interested into TW3 was the one made by angryjoe (and angryjoe did some honest reviews so far, also for the Risen games).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJpWBMH9EtQ

At about 14:40 you can see the sailing stuff, that thing got me. But I like everything I've seen so far in all the gameplay videos. Yesterday I've seen a fight against some creatures similar to the harpies... boy, that was fun. I won't post that video, it was leaked from some country in the Golf area, but hell, I can't wait for the 19th of May.

[The Ore Baron]

While I do agree that PB could take some hints and tips from W3, I don't think they should go overboard with imitating it.
So far, W3 seems to handle the open-world aspect pretty well, but I'm afraid that if PB tried it right now, we'd just get another G3. Remember how fun and immersive the Varant desert ruins were? I sure don't.

So personally, I'd prefer a condensed, smaller-scale world filled with interesting content - something that G1, G2 and R1 captured perfectly. Some tubular level design is also fine - the aforementioned games had plenty of it, while still remaining semi-open to a very enjoyable extent.

Fable games would the other extreme - what I'd call "hard-tube" design, with invisible walls encapsulating the player to not stray from the pre-set paths. The first two Dragon Age games suffered from this greatly. Even so, neither Fable nor DA games are bad per se.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that developers should specialize at what they do best. W3 does open world nicely, Bioware excels at hard-tube designs, while PB could occupy the golden middle, providing us with condensed, semi-tubular and semi-open worlds where every square meter holds something of note.

[catalinux]

While I do agree that PB could take some hints and tips from W3, I don't think they should go overboard with imitating it.

I totally agree. But I also see it the other way - it's like the guys behind TW3 took all the good stuff PB did, and added quite a lot of new features.

I don't see this like a competition. I am just thrilled to see another game that promise a lot of fun and adventure.

[Thalamond]

Risen 1 is among my absolute favorite RPG games. It is one of the only games in the genre where:

1. combat is not lame (no stupid 'I am a hero' abilities), is responsive, and actually requires some skill (even though it has problems when fighting several enemies in tight areas)

2.RESPONSIVE NPCS!!!(!!!) - when you randomly draw your weapon, they do too and tell you to sheat it, when you don't follow an npc who you are supposed to, it not only waits, but also SAYS something like "come along". Same goes for being detected while sneaking, animals roaring at you to not come any closer etc. And while it could easily be even better, it makes for a game where npcs actually seem to be alive a part of the time, something a overhyped game like Skyrim never did with its brainless characters.

3.non-hero Story (for the most part) - while the last titan part is contrary to this, the game does a great job explaining to the player that the Nameless Hero is just another stowaway and not the "hero" who needs to "save the world" that every other RPG does these days. Of course the player character also ends up saving the world in a titan armor, but at least it took its sweet time making you feel like you actually "deserve" it somehow. Again this is the exact opposite of Skyrim, where from level 1 and being completely useless, you are capable of using shouts and being a "dragonborn". Even classic games like Baldur's Gate had this "hero" feature.

4. Immersive setting: while AAA RPGs are often praised for their "enormous playable areas" Risen, with its smaller island, makes sense. There is a sorta civil war going on. This is based on a very pressing situation, namely the ruins. Why is everyone in the Harbour Town or in one of the other closed areas ? Because the Inquisition ordered it to be so. A dilemma between the petty corruption of the native, sometimes liked bandits, against the stricter law and order types of the Inquisition. Bottom line is the setting and its boundaries make sense. It isn't like Skyrim, where everything is easily explained by "ancient prophecies" and other cheap tricks.


I could go on about why I think Risen is a very well made game, but instead I will now give you my point with this ramble:
Risen 2, and 3 failed at creating the same immersive world as Risen 1. From the combat to the setting, everything is just made in a less satisfying way, although there is more of it. The pirate theme seems like a departure from a great theme that combined pirates with medieval and mystical magic themes and to me it seemed to be based more on the branding of the sequels as "pirate RPGs" than on actual gameplay meaning.

Therefore I hope that with their next game, Piranha Bytes will create an rpg with all core mechanics as good and even better than Risen 1. But also a game that makes the "Nameless Hero" name more ambigious and therefore mature than so many other rpgs. Make a believable world. Not the huge world of Risen 3 where you basically have a number of random islands that look "cool" to sell each faction. Make every area count. No cliched pirate world, try something a little more unique. Make the player a nobody who is sly and downplayed similar to the PC in Risen and has no backstory. This is instead of the pompous "save the world against evil" type or the smartass of Risen 2 who irritatingly had a backstory, becoming an alcoholic and blablabla boring stuff that forces players into a role they haven't choosen themselves.

Those are my hopes for PB's next game.

Cheers!

[Andante]

Risen 1 is among my absolute favorite RPG games. It is one of the only games in the genre where:

1. combat is not lame (no stupid 'I am a hero' abilities), is responsive, and actually requires some skill (even though it has problems when fighting several enemies in tight areas)

2.RESPONSIVE NPCS!!!(!!!) - when you randomly draw your weapon, they do too and tell you to sheat it, when you don't follow an npc who you are supposed to, it not only waits, but also SAYS something like "come along". Same goes for being detected while sneaking, animals roaring at you to not come any closer etc. And while it could easily be even better, it makes for a game where npcs actually seem to be alive a part of the time, something a overhyped game like Skyrim never did with its brainless characters.

3.non-hero Story (for the most part) - while the last titan part is contrary to this, the game does a great job explaining to the player that the Nameless Hero is just another stowaway and not the "hero" who needs to "save the world" that every other RPG does these days. Of course the player character also ends up saving the world in a titan armor, but at least it took its sweet time making you feel like you actually "deserve" it somehow. Again this is the exact opposite of Skyrim, where from level 1 and being completely useless, you are capable of using shouts and being a "dragonborn". Even classic games like Baldur's Gate had this "hero" feature.

4. Immersive setting: while AAA RPGs are often praised for their "enormous playable areas" Risen, with its smaller island, makes sense. There is a sorta civil war going on. This is based on a very pressing situation, namely the ruins. Why is everyone in the Harbour Town or in one of the other closed areas ? Because the Inquisition ordered it to be so. A dilemma between the petty corruption of the native, sometimes liked bandits, against the stricter law and order types of the Inquisition. Bottom line is the setting and its boundaries make sense. It isn't like Skyrim, where everything is easily explained by "ancient prophecies" and other cheap tricks.


I could go on about why I think Risen is a very well made game, but instead I will now give you my point with this ramble:
Risen 2, and 3 failed at creating the same immersive world as Risen 1. From the combat to the setting, everything is just made in a less satisfying way, although there is more of it. The pirate theme seems like a departure from a great theme that combined pirates with medieval and mystical magic themes and to me it seemed to be based more on the branding of the sequels as "pirate RPGs" than on actual gameplay meaning.

Therefore I hope that with their next game, Piranha Bytes will create an rpg with all core mechanics as good and even better than Risen 1. But also a game that makes the "Nameless Hero" name more ambigious and therefore mature than so many other rpgs. Make a believable world. Not the huge world of Risen 3 where you basically have a number of random islands that look "cool" to sell each faction. Make every area count. No cliched pirate world, try something a little more unique. Make the player a nobody who is sly and downplayed similar to the PC in Risen and has no backstory. This is instead of the pompous "save the world against evil" type or the smartass of Risen 2 who irritatingly had a backstory, becoming an alcoholic and blablabla boring stuff that forces players into a role they haven't choosen themselves.

Those are my hopes for PB's next game.

Cheers!


The forum has fallen short of comments like this. Very nice post, it summarizes all the things that made R1 a unique game, we definitely need more posts like this so that PB realizes its mistakes. R1 stood out of the crowd of modern RPG's by presenting a believable world with a mild fantasy setting. No extravagances, no cheap marketing techniques to impress the younger audiences, a quality game aiming at the serious player. Even the last chapters although more of the "hero type" came as a natural result of the heroes previous progression. R2 and R3 were no RPG's, they were just action games with some minor RPG elements.

[Dino]

No extravagances, no cheap marketing techniques to impress the younger audiences, a quality game aiming at the serious player.

I suppose we can dream as long as it's free.

[Morgannin09]

3.non-hero Story (for the most part) - while the last titan part is contrary to this, the game does a great job explaining to the player that the Nameless Hero is just another stowaway and not the "hero" who needs to "save the world" that every other RPG does these days. Of course the player character also ends up saving the world in a titan armor, but at least it took its sweet time making you feel like you actually "deserve" it somehow. Again this is the exact opposite of Skyrim, where from level 1 and being completely useless, you are capable of using shouts and being a "dragonborn". Even classic games like Baldur's Gate had this "hero" feature.
On this note, I also want to point out that even Gothic had an unwelcome amount of "prophecy" and "destiny" and that kind of crap that didn't really contribute to the story at all. The personality of the Hero lent itself to a great David and Goliath kind of story, where a spunky every-man is able to conquer the monumental evil powers against him by his wits, training, and force of will, not because he was destined to do so. When I hear things like Xardas talking about how the Hero is supposed to be the "Holy foe" of the Orc prophecies, or the Undead Dragon speaking of how the Hero's exploits on Khorinis and his arrival on Irdorath was exactly what he anticipated, or the whole Decider thing in Gothic 3, it all just feels like nonsense and takes back from the appeal of the Hero. Risen did it much better, and to be honest, none of the Risen games at all are bogged down by that whole Fated Hero kind of jargon - the heroes are both just men who end up having to take up arms and strengthen themselves for the fight simply because everyone's going to fucking die if they don't, and (at least in the first game) it feels like a monumental task to become the force of nature that can actually stand up to the power of the Titans.

[foobar]

On this note, I also want to point out that even Gothic had an unwelcome amount of "prophecy" and "destiny" and that kind of crap that didn't really contribute to the story at all.

I tend to agree. But it's what people nowadays expect. When I look at the forum, games with more normal stories seem to get a lot of criticism for that aspect. For example: There are a lot of bad things to be said about Dragon Age 2, but the story was actually good. However, a lot of people criticised it for not being clear, offering them no guidance and motivation. They didn't wear white hat and there were no people with black hats. Damn, how do I know who to kill without a clear-cut good-and-evil? I want to kill something, that's action and fun! Same goes for Drakensang: River of Time. No chosen one, no world to save and suddenly there's "a lack of character motivation".

Likewise, stories that say: "You are the Chosen One™, destined by <insert higher power here> to deliver us from ancient evil. Everything is clear-cut and there's only black and white." can be as shitty as they want. Most people will still be satisfied with them.

And it's kind of a safe bet for a developer, too. You're always under pressure to produce game after game after game, rushing from one deadline to the next. A simple story concept (good vs. evil) is easy to transport to the player. Little effort needed. And suspense can be created by raising the stakes: Yes, the story may be not so intricate and compelling. But the fate of the world is in my hands! Oh no, I have to play that other game instead. There, it's about the entire galaxy. And that one's even better, I can save the universe!

As long as Joe R. Gamer doesn't at least end up saving the multiverse, he'll complain about why he even bothered to make the effort. :)


And from that - admittedly sad - situation, the "Gothic I" way seems like something of an acceptable compromise: It is only hinted that you may be the prophesied chosen one. It's never clearly said that you are or are not. Xardas himself isn't sure. He just says: "You may be..." (at least in the German version). So the players who want to be destined hero can imagine they are. And the one who don't can just put it aside as superstitious nonsense.

[catalinux]

the "Gothic I" way seems like something of an acceptable compromise: It is only hinted that you may be the prophesied chosen one. It's never clearly said that you are or are not. Xardas himself isn't sure. He just says: "You may be..." (at least in the German version).

Xardas says...
AI_Output (self, hero,"Info_Xardas_EVENT_14_02"); //I believe you could be... NO, to be really sure, you'll have to perform another task!
AI_Output (self, other,"Info_Xardas_FOUNDTEMPLE_14_04"); //Maybe you really are the man the Orcish prophecies told of!
AI_Output (other, self,"Info_Xardas_PROPHECY_15_05"); //I'm supposed to be the one mentioned in the ancient prophecies??? You must be wrong, surely!
AI_Output (self, other,"Info_Xardas_PROPHECY_14_06"); //Maybe... Maybe not!

They actually mocked the whole chosen one thing. Remember the crazy novice with the focus stone? And practically all the guys from the swamp camp, having visions after smoking weed.
The nameless hero was just another convict, trying to stay alive while looking for a way out of the Barrier. And everybody was trying to manipulate him. And what better way to manipulate a man than saying to him "Man, you may be the chosen one. Don't you want to prove yourself?"

[foobar]

I'm not really sure it was meant to be a mockery, but it's certainly vague enough to be interpreted that way. Which might have been the point in the first place.

[Maladiq]

I really don't have much against the "go save the world" plot. Sure, it is stupid, but it can be tweaked enough to seem more "original".

Even if they do Risen 4, they could try a total shift towards a tongue-in-cheek game. Just change the hero into a novice of the inquisition who is also kind of a stoner. He knows he is not the chosen one, but everyone around him thinks so. Has anyone here seen "Hot Fuzz"? I can think of a funny tribute:

Grand Inquisitor: You must kill the sand devils!
Hero: why the hell would I do that?!
All the council of the mages: For the greater good!
Hero: you do realize the sand devils keep the pirates away, right?
All the council of the mages: FOR THE GREATER GOOD!
Hero: I am sick and tired of all of this hot fuzz...

5 minutes later

Grand Inquisitor: What the hell are you doing?!!
Hero: Did you know these little guys can play fetch?
Grand Inquisitor: We gave you a task!
Hero: Yeah, I know, but you know those messages I sometimes get from the higher power? Apparently I get to keep one of these guys. *mumbles* perks of being the chosen one...

I mean, nobody could ever take the Risen series seriously at this point, they might as well turn it into a parody.

[Dino]

Has anyone here seen "Hot Fuzz"?

Bonum commune communitatis

[Maladiq]

Bonum commune communitatis

Yarp

[Maladiq]

Thread necromancy activated!

http://worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/98-elex-official-website-coming-in-a-few-days

Piranha Bytes have announced (https://www.facebook.com/elexgame/photos/a.1413355708995235.1073741828.1411163712547768/1578176465846491/?type=3) via their Facebook page that the full version of their website will be released in a few days.
Do you think it will be something similar to the old Risen Experience website?

[The Ore Baron]

Piranha Bytes have announced (https://www.facebook.com/elexgame/photos/a.1413355708995235.1073741828.1411163712547768/1578176465846491/?type=3) via their Facebook page that the full version of their website will be released in a few days.
Do you think it will be something similar to the old Risen Experience website?

Doubt it. Although I loved that website, I doubt enough people saw it to justify all the hard work that went into it.

As for the new website, I'm guessing there will be character/faction reveals released on a weekly basis or so, providing some basic backstory/lore. I think Risen 2/3 websites were like that, and I don't mind such design at all.

EDIT: damn it, I hate when my posts begin a new topic page.

[Maladiq]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txv_EmxrSs0

[The Ore Baron]

Not really feeling it for some reason. The music is rather bland, and the areas look empty.

Sure, it says pre-alpha, but something's just lacking.

[Maladiq]

Not really feeling it for some reason. The music is rather bland, and the areas look empty.

Sure, it says pre-alpha, but something's just lacking.

I don't know. It really did the trick for me. The music reminds me of the Interstellar soundtrack, while the world looks beautiful and immersive. I am sure they have yet to add all NPCs, enemies and loot in the game world.

I can't even begin to tell you how excited I am :D

[Dez]

The game is shaping up nicely. Even though its pre-alpha, some of those scenes were breathtaking. I noticed how different style the game has compared to risen 2 & 3 which were kind of cartoony. This game already looks more authentic and real. Good to see that they're aiming high this time around. Still work to be done obviously, but this is very promising. I haven't been this excited of a pb game for a long time. So keep up the good work pbs! :)

The enthusiasm of piranha bytes shows finally. I'm so glad that they have arrived to this point where they are once again determined and ready to do something exciting. The game seems to have plenty of fresh ideas.

And I liked the bit of music we heard. Sounded like something taken from an epic scifi film. :)

[rotator]

A hope the music is not from the game, just some temporary track or it's pre-alpha, too. Very amateurish sounding generic stuff, kills any possible immersion. This project still desperately needs KaiRo or someone equally talented in the music department. On the other hand graphics and animation are nice!

[Ravenhearth]

Music is from the game according to Jenny.

[Maladiq]

Rumor has it that the Gods (PB) have chosen a single mortal and revealed who the composer is. He is not allowed to tell anyone.

[UrukGox]

Storm (Don Lawrence (https://www.google.com/search?q=Storm+(Don+Lawrence)&client=firefox-b&biw=1232&bih=648&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjGxqaQns7OAhUDOhQKHV2RDscQ_AUICCgB)), el mercenario (https://www.google.com/search?q=el+mercenario+comic&client=firefox-b&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjO0PTNns7OAhULVhQKHYVtA2cQ_AUICCgB&biw=1232&bih=648) ... This is a good direction for Sci-Fi fantasy.

jeremiah hermann (https://www.google.rs/search?q=jeremiah+hermann&client=tablet-android-asus-rev&biw=962&bih=601&prmd=inv&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiG07Pugb7PAhUpCMAKHVGxC34Q_AUIBygB) ... for post-apocalyptic environment.

[Hellbilly]

Elex is also coming to GoG (https://www.gog.com/game/elex). However, though I prefer the "no DRM" policy of GoG, I'm still more likely to buy it via Steam because in my experience Steam are better with delivering updates.

[foobar]

I'm still more likely to buy it via Steam because in my experience Steam are better with delivering updates.

You're assuming that there are going to be patches. That's kind of cute. ;)

It's not what we've seen in recent years. One or maybe two patches and that's it. Product lifecycle over. Does one really need Steam for that?

But aside from that: What do you mean with "better"? Faster availability? Faster downloads? Easier application through the Steam software? Just curious.

[Hellbilly]

You're assuming that there are going to be patches. That's kind of cute. ;)

It's not what we've seen in recent years. One or maybe two patches and that's it. Product lifecycle over. Does one really need Steam for that?

But aside from that: What do you mean with "better"? Faster availability? Faster downloads? Easier application through the Steam software? Just curious.

Well, the customary release day patch might be quite essential to have a playable game :D

But yes, with a lot of games updates seem to come a day or two earlier via Steam, and even with GoG Galaxy installed, it seems to me like the Steam client downloads the updates a bit faster. Of course, I haven't tested the same game on both platforms, but that's the impression I've got.

[foobar]

But yes, with a lot of games updates seem to come a day or two earlier via Steam, and even with GoG Galaxy installed, it seems to me like the Steam client downloads the updates a bit faster. Of course, I haven't tested the same game on both platforms, but that's the impression I've got.

It's possible. Steam has been around longer, it could be that their CDN is better positioned. At least, in your specific part of the world.

I can only say that GOG usually manages to use my entire internet bandwidth when downloading. Hence, Steam won't probably be any faster.

[Hellbilly]

Admittedly, GoG Galaxy has improved lately and is still only in beta stage, but so far it's like a stripped-down, slightly handicapped little brother of the Steam client. But, remains to be seen from where I buy the game. Those small price differences and extras different platforms have might make all the difference.

[Morgannin09]

Admittedly, GoG Galaxy has improved lately and is still only in beta stage, but so far it's like a stripped-down, slightly handicapped little brother of the Steam client. But, remains to be seen from where I buy the game. Those small price differences and extras different platforms have might make all the difference.

I'm more than happy to take a sub-standard interface with Galaxy, since overall GoG is a much more consumer-friendly platform, with the emphasis on non-DRM and much less restrictive refund policies, active support from GoG themselves on patching and updating the games, and the fact that GoG is a more exclusive and well-maintained platform that isn't just inundated with shitty shovelware games every day.

[Ariogaisus]

Does anybody else feel that PB are ill-suited to making this sort of 'epic' RPG on a grand scale, which seems to be popular nowadays? I believe they're good at making small, yet detailed worlds like they did in Risen and in the first two Gothic games, although the latter was more due to limitations of the tech at the time. None of this multiple island bollocks or the pointless, empty reaches of land we saw in Gothic 3.

Does any of this have a grain of truth or am I talking out of my arse?

[foobar]

Does anybody else feel that PB are ill-suited to making this sort of 'epic' RPG on a grand scale, which seems to be popular nowadays?

I'm not sure. I guess it depends on the definition of "epic". If it's just about size, like Skyrim, Fallout 4 or The Witcher 3, then they probably can't compete here because the team is too small. But if "epic" means, at least in some significant part, that you have this world that is intricate and detailed both on the narrative and the level design layer, and interesting quests (like The Witcher 3), then maybe they could come up with something like that. It might not be as big, but it could make up for it in some other part.

Personally, however, I have to admit to a lack of confidence in their willingness to create such captivating worlds. The ability itself may or may not be there. It's hard to tell. Because if it is there, it hasn't been used for quite some time. The PB approach to world design nowadays seems to be: What features do we want? What story do we tell? And then they cobble together a world that can carry these goals. And that's more or less it, as far as world design goes. The world exists (only) to carry the plot.

The, in my opinion, better approach would be to first create a world that can stand on itself and has intrinsic verisimilitude and rich details. And then try to think about what story you could tell in that world. And then think about which features would and would not fit into the world and support the story. That's what CDPR did with the Witcher series. The world was already there, and they were "forced" to come up with a story that can take place in that world. And I think the results are nothing to turn your nose at.

PB certainly could do that. At least, I don't see anything that would stop them. But first, they'd have to want it. Which doesn't really seem to be the case. There are some recent developer comments that promised more care for the lore. But lore is only secondary and not the core issue. And so far, the comments are only talk. I have yet to see them put into something concrete. Over in the German forum, we had a discussion about a few aspects of the new setting that did not seem to make sense, at least given what we know at this point in time. If PB really had this intricate, beautifully crafted, rich and plausible world, they could clear that up with ease and without any spoilers. But they don't. Questions about certain plausibility issues are either not answered, or answered only evasively, or claimed to be "spoilers" (which is particularly concerning for me).

So, honestly, I don't know. The size of the team sets some hard limits in terms of size regarding total level dimensions and quest count and stuff like that. But there is not much restricting them in terms of size regarding the imaginary game world. And maybe that would be enough to count as "epic". Or at least to be an interesting alternative to all the "epic" RPGs out there. Something to show people that smaller things can be beautiful, too.

[Ravenhearth]

I love you. §knuff

[The Ore Baron]

You guys hanging in there? §wink

[Ariogaisus]

Somewhat.

[Ravenhearth]

New release date announced (http://www.worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/238-new-release-date-announced)

[Ravenhearth]

Preview and Interview by RPG Codex (http://worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/245-preview-and-interview-by-rpg-codex)

[rotator]

Well, my friends, the latest Mass Effect: Andromeda gameplay video features the exact same jetpack Elex is going to have and it looks very good and organic to the action. People are already talking about it what a cool feature it is. (To be honest in Mass Effect 3 one of the multiplayer characters had jetpack, but that was only used for dodging.) Fingers crossed.

[Ravenhearth]

What do you think, which PB game has the best melee system? (http://www.worldofelex.de/en/component/mijopolls/poll/16-melee)

[The Ore Baron]

Take this as a bunch of ambitious devs and pull your shit together.
Can't force creativity.
I think PB's trying their hardest, but the standard is set too high.
Not to mention that a significant part of the team has changed over the years.

Can't expect them to come up with something better than NotR with every game, as much as I'd like that.
That doesn't mean ELEX won't be enjoyable.

[Bamfy]

Look, notr wasn't even original story, bad dragons coming to kill and all that so thats the creativity behind notr(G1 was the original one, at least in my books).
So even if the game lacked creative story, it worked marvelous.

But they keep going on creating these features but nobody can have a ponytail, you have a jetpack but you can't climb a 1 feet rock, you were a freaking pirate but you still couldn't dive in the water. Were these setbacks in one game or in all games after g2?

And here is the feeling of laziness, they add these features nobody cares about but what we are vocal about they don't do anything. They work around it, not on it.

If PB were trying their best, they would realize their engine is complete garbage and that they should create a game around its story, not around some features of some cheap ass engine.

[catalinux]

So many years later after Gothic 1, I'd like to be able to build myself a damn campfire wherever I want.

[Forward]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPLJgU5SOvY

april 1 fools? that animations though... I'm outta here!

[Ravenhearth]

On IGN's Youtube channel an official prologue trailer of Elex has been released, which tells us the history of Magalan through animated artworks and narration. The four factions and the hero, Jax, are a topic as well. You can see the english video below:
(News (https://www.worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/343-official-prologue-trailer-released))


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBLzNYsKPb0

[The Ore Baron]

Looks good, honestly. Nice art, solid summary of the backstory.

Although the trailer doesn't really explain how exactly did elex make Albs "stronger". Just better focus and stamina? Doesn't sound that great. They probably consider themselves the next step in human evolution or something. Cleric technology and Berserker magic still sound more fun, tho.

And I still see no reason to join the Outlaws.
>no clear goal
>no power hierarchy
>LMAO DRUGS
Degenerate scum. I'm joining the Clerics and purging them all with laser fire.

I wonder if Albs themselves will be a joinable faction... We'll probably get some bullshit like "Nah, dude, you've already felt them emotions, man. Sorry, no can do, you're tainted now, can't take you back, son."

[Morgannin09]

>no clear goal
>no power hierarchy
>LMAO DRUGS


The goal is just "freedom." No answering to tyrants, no authority dictating who can do what, just everyone working together when it's convenient and survival of the fittest. Embracing the disorder of the apocalypse instead of yearning for the yoke all over again.


I wonder if Albs themselves will be a joinable faction... We'll probably get some bullshit like "Nah, dude, you've already felt them emotions, man. Sorry, no can do, you're tainted now, can't take you back, son."

I do think it's just that simple. They don't know if they can trust you anymore. You were their highest profile leader and now suddenly you've experienced something that is completely taboo in their organization. And by the time you reach them again, you will clearly have met the other factions on non-hostile terms, so in this virgin experience with your new emotions, who knows what kind of loyalties you may have made?


Although the trailer doesn't really explain how exactly did elex make Albs "stronger". Just better focus and stamina? Doesn't sound that great. They probably consider themselves the next step in human evolution or something.

The only thing I can assume is that they've mastered the means of refining it, or have become capable of consuming it in its raw, most powerful form (as opposed to the other factions, who have to "cook" it into something else that's easier to control).

What I'm most curious about is the line that the Outlaws consume the drugs to "free their minds." That implies some kind of mental or psychic benefit versus a sheer physical enhancement via their Elex drugs. Yet so far the Outlaws are implied to just be a faction of thugs, with physical violence being their primary means to an end.

[Dez]

I admit the trailer actually peaked my intrest. Good honest story telling which is comforting. And really well drawn art too! Pbs should do more these kind of mini trailers to promote their game. Make us care about this world, make us understand the setting more. Make us belive in the magic of Elex. Are you listening pbs? :)

As for the Albs' motivation to rule is still not something I can relate to at all. Lets hope there is more than suppressing emotions just because of it would make me stronger, better etc. There has to be a bigger reason for them to do that kind of sacrifice. I mean i get we need a villain, but I'm hoping there is more nuance in Albs faction than meets the eye.

And by the way I really dig the new screenshots! the new screenies have more realistic vibe which I find intresting. The increase in graphical quality is remarkable. Extra development time really shows and the game is shaping up. :)

ps. long time no see guys. :)

[Ravenhearth]

German Let's Player "Gronkh" has released a preview of Elex on his Youtube channel. Together with Björn Pankratz from Piranha Bytes he's playing the game right from it's start. The preview is going to be 3 hours in total and the first video is 40 minutes. (News (https://worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/359-elex-preview-in-german))


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znOieSu_PRI

[The Ore Baron]

Interesting. I'll watch it later.
EDIT: Oh wait, it's purely in German.

I wonder if Morgannin still visits these forums. His analysis videos were top notch.

[Morgannin09]

Interesting. I'll watch it later.
EDIT: Oh wait, it's purely in German.

I wonder if Morgannin still visits these forums. His analysis videos were top notch.

If I don't, then I wonder who the hell replied to your post the other day :p I'm working on a new video once I get some support translating some annotations for Gronkh's video so I know what they were talking about.

[The Ore Baron]

If I don't, then I wonder who the hell replied to your post the other day :p
My brain must've short-circuited for a moment there.
Sorry.

Some observations from the video:

* Looks and plays almost exactly like Risen 2/3. Good think we at least get the jetpack at he start of the game, although it doesn't seem to add much to the game so far.
* Facial animations are quite mediocre, character models don't look all that good, either. Somehow even worse than in Risen 1/2/3.
* I don't like the white outline around focused objects. We'll probably be able to turn it off, though.
* On-screen prompts for climbing onto things is also annoying.
* Item icons are just black and white stencil symbols, not colored pictures. Makes the inventory look very dull. I understand it is a stylistic choice, but I'd prefer more color.
* Heck, the entire HUD looks dull.
* Fur on the berserker's armour looks too static, compared to the hair on the character's head, at least.
* Character got experience points after dying. A small mistake, easily ignored, but easily fixed, as well.
* The weird elongated grunt the PC makes when using the jetpack is just ridiculous.

* Enemies seem to have an endurance/stamina bar under their health bar. This reminds me of NIOH, where tracking enemy's stamina can help in a battle, for example attacking them when they're tired and can't defend effectively. I wonder if ELEX has something like that. Then again, in the video, the green bar is always static and doesn't change in color, so maybe that's just a random line.
* It seems like the player had some problem switching between locked-on targets. It might have been his mistake, not the game's, though.

* World itself looks nice and detailed so far, I can't wait to explore it more.
* Picking up audio cassettes for lore/backstory is a nice idea.
* It seems that cigarettes will be used as an alternative sort of currency. Another cool idea.

[Morgannin09]

I don't know what the fascination is with sci-fi games and sleek, simplistic HUD icons. It really does annoy me. Especially for a post-apocalypse game, I would hope for something a bit more industrial and decayed looking, but given that it's all supposed to look like an interface on his smart watch thing, it should at least look more digital. But their icons have been getting more "basic" looking as time goes on, because they want them to look stylish and artsy as opposed to just being a thumbnail of the actual 3D model.

I'm a little weirded out by the apparent combination of their stylistic sort of "pastel" look of the Risen games and the greater attempt to be more realistic. The graphics just already look dated, I mean I've seen worse looking games come out lately but I do think that if they can't keep up with modern graphical standards, they should pick a less conventional art style and make something iconic about it. I actually kind of liked the look of Risen 2 and 3 in general, where everything looked a bit more like it was painted rather than organic. Still, they definitely need to work on hair and fur to look more like strands and less like molded rubber. I don't necessarily expect hair physics ala Witcher 3 or even Bloodborne, but something a bit more natural and less rubbery, at least.

The Dx11 effects do a good job of masking the otherwise dated look in general, though, at least in a zoomed out view.

I don't expect the facial animations to ever look natural because so many AAA games nowadays use Hollywood mo-cap techniques nowadays, and it gets very wonky once you start messing with the facial details on different characters. As long as we don't get something as bizarre as Shax in R3.

I think the character models look "worse" simply because they're more generic. Say what you will about Risen, but they definitely had a style to it, as opposed to just "angry shaved white guy." Hopefully further characters get more interesting. It only makes sense that the disciplined, militaristic Albs would be very stark and plain looking.

[Ravenhearth]

* The weird elongated grunt the PC makes when using the jetpack is just ridiculous.



You mean the one starting at 35:18? I'm pretty sure Björn made that noise. :p

[The Ore Baron]

You mean the one starting at 35:18? I'm pretty sure Björn made that noise. :p
That's what I thought at first. But then it happened again at 36:20, and it did not seem like it was Björn making it. I just rewatched those two parts of the video, however, and it seems it was Björn after all. Sorry.

[Ravenhearth]

Here's the second video (News (https://worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/363-elex-preview-in-german-2)):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLLwrbCkbeY

[Ravenhearth]

Elex - is everything just stolen?! (https://worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/365-elex-all-just-stolen)

[Morgannin09]

Elex - is everything just stolen?! (https://worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/365-elex-all-just-stolen)
By this circumstantial evidence, I think we can also accuse Piranha Bytes of copying S.T.A.L.K.E.R.

1. Apocalyptic event resulting in landscape being ravaged, radiation making areas uninhabitable, nature being changed in unpredictable ways, terrible mutations to human and animal life

2. New materials previously unheard of to science that offer special abilities to humans, but can be incredibly dangerous as well

3. Factions develop which have varying relationships with each other, including a faction of outlaws/bandits and a faction of zealots

4. Incredible new technologies being developed owing to the miraculous new developments that defy conventional science

Seriously, take a good read of the Rustwalker premise on the guy's website and all I can say is it sounds like an interesting read, possibly, but there is almost no common ground between them.


"Rustwalker directly confronts prominent social themes such as race, gender, feminism, equality, oppression, elitism and power. With intriguing characters of various races and backgrounds, strong female leads, and empowered characters with disabilities, the story is as inclusive as it is socially challenging. As opposed to playing it safe, Rustwalker faces controversial issues directly and provokes the reader to question and analyze their own social belief systems."


Pretty sure Piranha Bytes is not making this game to make a stand on today's social issues. Nor are they making a game involving sexy cat people.

http://www.rustwalker.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Cats-promoFINAL2.jpg

[Smaloki]

In case anyone's interested, I've added some subtitles to the second gameplay video (well, most of it's actually just annotations that summarize the important information). Took me a few hours, but it's finally done... the subs aren't available right away though, they need to be reviewed (afaik subs can be approved by the community alone, without any involvement of the video owner).

If you want to check them out, just open the options (little cog icon), click on "Subtitles/CC", then select "Add subtitles/CC", then "English"... and you should be able to see them.

[Bamfy]

Seriously, take a good read of the Rustwalker premise on the guy's website and all I can say is it sounds like an interesting read, possibly, but there is almost no common ground between them

You must be joking. The meteor, the 4 factions, the whole elex thing, emotions withdrawal. To many similar points neh? "But wait, elex has no cat people" well, nobody is stupid enough to rip off a story completly. But as we all know PB games, expect some ancient race or evil race that replaces the cat people.(lizard men R1,G2). Some twists here and there and you have a new story.

Btw, while I do believe stalker to be one of the best survival/post-apocaliptic games, by circumstantial evidence, elex isn't a stalker rip off. But it sure is a Rustwalker rip off.

[foobar]

I looked at the Rustwalker website and don't see too many similarities, to be honest. There are 4 factions, yes, but their description sounds different from the ones that Elex has. Other than that, there's not a lot to go on (at least by looking at rustwalker.com). The story description is vague and imprecise. It talks only about design goals, not what actually happens. The "Starfall" event is described with merely two sentences. It doesn't even mention a meteor, just some dust falling from the sky. The "Celestial Age" only has one sentence more (maybe a Kickstarter stretch goal ;)), so there's not a lot to go on either.

I'm not saying there's no way it's plagiarized. But despite the lack of information on both projects, for every similarity you find, there's another discrepancy. Attributing the former to plagiarism and interpreting the latter as an attempt to avoid making it all too obvious seems like "guilty until proven innocent" to me. :dnuhr:

There is the distinct possibility that is simply a coincident. If you look at the elements in question, they're not exactly that original to begin with. It's not difficult to imagine different people coming up with these ideas independently from each other.

Let's take some examples of Elex and/or Rustwalker setting elements:

Something falling from the skies, changing the world? We had that with the dinosaurs (at least, it's one theory about what happened to them). Or with the 2004 movie "Post Impact". Or the 1998 movie "Deep Impact". Or the 1951 movie "When Worlds Collide". Which is based on a novel of the same name from 1933. All of which predate both Elex and Rustwalker. And those are just a few examples of a very popular theme in entertainment.
A faction of fanatics? Do I really have to list all the books and films where we have a group of people who think they are the Chosen People, waging a Holy War against Evil, when they themselves are actually somewhat of a problem? Or do I just point to the Crusades?
What about a faction of people concerned about their purity? The peaceful natives/nature dudes? The elitist worshippers of power? Never been done before, I'm certain.
A rare fictional substance with fantastic properties? Aside from Gothic 1 itself, we have NZT-48 in Limitless (2011), unobtanium in Avatar (2009), eezo in Mass Effect (2007), scrith in Ringworld (1970), the spice in Dune (1965) or cavonite in the 1901 novel "The First Men in the Moon" by H.G. Wells. Again, just a few examples of so many.
Substance-induced loss of emotions (which I couldn't find on rustwalker.com, btw.)? We had that in the movie Equilibrium from 2002.
Mutations that bestow superhuman abilities? How many comic book superheroes do I need to list?


And the list goes on. I can't think of anything truly original. In either setting. So who stole what from whom, exactly?

The only thing you could potentially argue is that the combination of all of these elements is unique. At least, I can't think of any precedent for these settings of the top off my hat. But if you do that, you must look at the entire combination of factors. The ones that are similar and the ones that are different. And then we've come full circle because there are also a lot of differences. It's two different combinations.

At the end of the day, sorting this out will likely be impossible to do. Even in a court of law, should it ever come to that. I think both parties would be better served by taking the high road. Just tell yourself that imitation is the highest form of flattery and move on. Adding friction to the process will only hobble everyone. Do your thing, and let it stand for itself.

[Ravenhearth]

And the next video (News (https://worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/370-elex-preview-in-german-3)):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYLEaYyoWtc

[The Ore Baron]

My previous post on this topic has been (understandably) deleted, so I won't repeat myself. I'll just note that the comic in question is hardly what I'd consider a worthwhile read.

That being said, I don't believe PB is guilty of plagiarism. Despite what Bamfy thinks, the similarities between the comic and ELEX are all derived from pre-existing fiction-writing tropes, and I am honestly amazed at the arrogance of anyone daring to claim these were their original ideas.


In case anyone's interested, I've added some subtitles to the second gameplay video (well, most of it's actually just annotations that summarize the important information). Took me a few hours, but it's finally done...
Thank you, Smaloki. Much appreciated! §wink

EDIT:
Also, here's some food for thought.
Would PB be willing to give Morgannin an early copy of the game? He could produce a short preview of the game in English, similar to what this German guy has done. Maybe even have Björn on Skype, participating in a stream and answering questions? I think he speaks English.
Morg's an established let's player, surely he'd qualify as a reviewer for community purposes.
Morgannin, what do you think?

[Morgannin09]

You must be joking. The meteor, the 4 factions, the whole elex thing, emotions withdrawal. To many similar points neh? "But wait, elex has no cat people" well, nobody is stupid enough to rip off a story completly. But as we all know PB games, expect some ancient race or evil race that replaces the cat people.(lizard men R1,G2). Some twists here and there and you have a new story.

Btw, while I do believe stalker to be one of the best survival/post-apocaliptic games, by circumstantial evidence, elex isn't a stalker rip off. But it sure is a Rustwalker rip off.

1. Post-apocalypse settings are not a new idea, so he can't claim that PB came up with that idea because of him.
2. Four factions? Based on my reading on the website, the 'four' factions in Rustwalker don't have a single analog in Elex. Not to mention, one of the 'factions' literally just works for another, making them essentially the same group.
3. This isn't a race of cat people. It's literally two cats that suddenly became people. And lizardmen in fantasy games is not a novel idea either, it's been in everything from D&D to Ultima and plenty of sci-fi as well.
4. Rustwalker takes place on Earth, Elex invented a new planet (that, of course, might as well be earth but avoids continuity errors completely)
4. Where in Rustwalker does it mention anything about a new substance that humans can consume like a drug? What about emotions or withdrawal? I've read across the website and haven't seen anything.
5. Finally, this novel literally has less than 80 people following it on FaceBook and a whole 2 on Twitter. I find it really hard to believe this ever came up on PB's radar while they were brainstorming, unless their concept meetings literally involve Googling obscure unreleased novels for something to copy.


Also, here's some food for thought.Would PB be willing to give Morgannin an early copy of the game? He could produce a short preview of the game in English, similar to what this German guy has done. Maybe even have Björn on Skype, participating in a stream and answering questions? I think he speaks English.
Morg's an established let's player, surely he'd qualify as a reviewer for community purposes.
Morgannin, what do you think?

I don't think I have a chance. Gronkh has about 5 million subscribers, I have 1400. It would be pretty awesome to get a preview peak of the game, but they'd be better off going to real publications for English previews. I'm also not anywhere qualified as a journalist, so asking him questions would probably be awkward and unenlightening :p

[The Ore Baron]

I don't think I have a chance. Gronkh has about 5 million subscribers, I have 1400. It would be pretty awesome to get a preview peak of the game, but they'd be better off going to real publications for English previews. I'm also not anywhere qualified as a journalist, so asking him questions would probably be awkward and unenlightened :p
Eh, don't sell yourself too short, I'm sure you'd do good, based on your earlier analysis videos and the questions you post on the 'Ask PB' thread. You know their earlier games well, and you care about their new one, so that already makes you more qualified than most other reviewers. I don't know who this Gronkh is, but I'm guessing he was picked as an early reviewer because of his popularity, not because he cares much for Elex or PB.
And I don't think subscribers mean much in this case, considering how there are literally five English-speaking people with any interest in Elex. If anything, giving you an early copy would make for good advertising, as those five people can suddenly become 1400 potential buyers. I don't see any other let's players lining up to review it, anyway.
I think it's worth a shot, but I'm not sure how we could proceed with contacting PB about this.

[Morgannin09]

Not trying to dispute or sound humble, but I can think of a load of logistical reasons why I wouldn't be a confident bet for a sponsored video or even free publicity. Most importantly, I'm a small channel who has never done a sponsored agreement and have no financial liability in my channel since I don't make money from it, so they have little assurance that I would honor any kind of NDA agreements or anything like that and might spoil big things or make their game look bad and potentially lose them sales. I know I'm better than that but they just can't take that risk.

[The Ore Baron]

Yeah, maybe you're right.
It was just a thought ;)

[Morgannin09]

Believe me, I would jump at the chance of an early preview. I just don't think we have the clout to negotiate that with Nordic :p

[Ravenhearth]

After the first three parts of his elex preview, Gronkh now has released the fourth video. As before Björn Pankratz from Piranha Bytes is giving him company. And like the first ones, the new video also is around 40 minutes long. This time the two discover a world heart, among other things. (News (https://worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/376-elex-preview-in-german-4))


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w02EO5XvfVs

[Ravenhearth]

I stitched together around 20 screenshots from the newest video to get an almost complete image of the world map. (News (https://worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/378-world-map-unveiled-almost-completely))

https://worldofelex.de/images/phocagallery/elex/art.img/76.png

[Ravenhearth]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dLooQXRywVw

[Grimmwulf]

I started watching the first video and enjoyed it, but will restrain myself from watching any further. Want to experience the world for the first time on my own.

Incidentally, I like how grim the protagonist looks. Wonder if anything in the game will affect his appearance, like in Risen 3.

[rotator]

Lots of improvements so far. Character faces and facial animation are kind of amateurish and the stepping shadows are still there, but overall it looks very promising. The inventory is a bit dull, albeit much better than the one in R2/3.

A couple of days ago I've accidentally looked into the Steam discussions about Elex. Man, I hope the devs are avoiding that place, crying babies everywhere (why no female lead, why no auto regeneration, etc.)...

[Morgannin09]

Lots of improvements so far. Character faces and facial animation are kind of amateurish and the stepping shadows are still there, but overall it looks very promising.

I read somewhere (forget where, probably in the German section) that the facial animations are not completed yet. Dunno about the shadows, smoothing that sort of thing can be pretty difficult.

[Ravenhearth]

The website Cultured Vultures has release a short preview about Elex. In it, the editor describes the setting of the game and compares it to Bioshock. She concludes her impression as follows:

Put simply, ELEX is an auspicious sci-fi RPG from an experienced studio set in a stunning – and seamless – open world full of characters, creatures, and quests.

Furthermore the preview is mentioning that Elex won't get any paid DLC, but only a free expansion or a proper sequel, if any. Since the preview has been shared by Piranha Bytes and the official Elex page on Facebook, it's safe to assume the information is correct.

News with link to the preview (https://worldofelex.de/en/site/news-archive/11-news-en/387-no-paid-dlc-for-elex)

[The Ore Baron]

Elex won't get any paid DLC
I, for one, hope PB starts a global trend with this.
I wish the industry would move from DLCs to proper expansion packs.

[rotator]

I, for one, hope PB starts a global trend with this.

It was already started with the worldwide AAA mega hit called The Witcher 3 and nobody listened in the industry.
Kudos to PB and Nordic for this one, though!

[Lester1996]

I really don't have any major problems with DLC provided it's cheap and actually contains something useful (not some useless armor packs or weapons). Provided it is not straight out cut from the game, like Mass Effect 3 did. However it is good for Piranha Bytes to include free dlc, but I certainly would want paid expansions. Especially if they can reach the same quality as Witcher 3 expansions did. Hoping for the best here:gratz

[Morgannin09]

My only problem with dlc is when it was clearly finished before the launch of the game (pre order bonuses especially). I was hopping mad when Risen 3 launched with two story dlc right off the bat, but at least they added them at no charge for the first few weeks of release.

[foobar]

I kinda liked the Risen 2 DLCs. Because they showed what they think about us. They didn't even bother to maintain plausible deniability.

"Oh, no, we didn't cut stuff from the game. The DLCs were commissioned after the main game was done." - "Then how come there are empty slots in the main game that fit exactly to the content of the DLCs? How did you know to do that if you didn't even know that DLCs would be commissioned, let alone with which content?" - "Erm... looky here. Nice screenshot, right?"

I mean, we all know how day one DLCs are really made, but most publishers and developers at least have enough shame to make an effort to hide it. DS/PB didn't.

It was kind of a Donald Trump lie vs. a normal politician lie. Both are lying, but the politician takes care to lie in a way that he can't be caught in it. Trump just doesn't care and lies even about well verifiable facts.

[AggroBuLLeT]

I kinda liked the Risen 2 DLCs. Because they showed what they think about us. They didn't even bother to maintain plausible deniability.

"Oh, no, we didn't cut stuff from the game. The DLCs were commissioned after the main game was done." - "Then how come there are empty slots in the main game that fit exactly to the content of the DLCs? How did you know to do that if you didn't even that DLCs would be commissioned, let alone with which content?" - "Erm... looky here. Nice screenshot, right?"

I mean, we all know how day one DLCs are really made, but most publishers and developers at least have enough shame to make an effort to hide it. DS/PB didn't.

It was kind of a Donald Trump lie vs. a normal politician lie. Both are lying, but the politician takes care to lie in a way that he can't be caught in it. Trump just doesn't care and lies even about well verifiable facts.

IIRC you even could start the DLCs with the ingame console, without having to buy them. which means they actually were already in game when they released it. the DLC itself was only an 1mb patch or something, telling the game to activate them.

atleast thats how i remember it.

[foobar]

IIRC you even could start the DLCs with the ingame console, without having to buy them.

Oh, yeah. And that.

[Morgannin09]

IIRC you even could start the DLCs with the ingame console, without having to buy them. which means they actually were already in game when they released it. the DLC itself was only an 1mb patch or something, telling the game to activate them.

atleast thats how i remember it.

That's very much a Capcom approach to DLC. Famously gating content in the launch files behind a paywall, and you're just buying the code to unlock them. Most developers/publishers are smart enough not to do that just because savvy players can hack the files open and get it without paying (though this may be detected by online registration/DRM so it's sketchy business if you want to play online).

Foobar, that's fair enough from a sarcastic approach, but frankly I prefer to see DLC that actually looks like it was made after the fact. It's one thing if the drafting and even preliminary programming are done for a DLC before the main game launches, because a lot of the development team are done with their work well before release day while bug fixing occurs. Or even when DLC is built from restored content cut from the original development (Dark Souls, for example, the Artorias of the Abyss DLC featured maps, enemies and NPC's that could actually be found incomplete in the original game files, and modified for the DLC).
If I recall correctly, our first leak of Risen 3 info was actually a SteamDB page referencing 3 DLC's that were going to be in the game months before the game even got announced, meaning that it was long decided that these DLC's would exist. I suspect that these were isolated chapters from early development when Deep Silver still planned an episodic release, and they were kept that way to be DLC after that idea was scrapped.

[The Ore Baron]

"Then how come there are empty slots in the main game that fit exactly to the content of the DLCs?
Explain, please. Give examples. I'm not doubting your or anything, it's just that the DLCs never felt all that interconnected with the rest of the game.

[foobar]

Explain, please. Give examples. I'm not doubting your or anything, it's just that the DLCs never felt all that interconnected with the rest of the game.

It's been a while and I don't remember all the details. But I think there was one DLC that added an additional companion to the game. And in the base game, on the companion selection screen, there was a slot for that companion (you know, exact shape of his outline, just darkened out). Something along those lines. All I remember was: There were references in the base game (not necessarily in the content, but also in the GUI) pointing to empty places that were only filled by the DLC.

[Morgannin09]

It's been a while and I don't remember all the details. But I think there was one DLC that added an additional companion to the game. And in the base game, on the companion selection screen, there was a slot for that companion (you know, exact shape of his outline, just darkened out). Something along those lines. All I remember was: There were references in the base game (not necessarily in the content, but also in the GUI) pointing to empty places that were only filled by the DLC.

Oh I thought you were talking about R3 this whole time. Risen 2's DLC was definitely sketchy as well. I have no doubt that the Treasure Isle DLC was gutted from the game to sell separately, considering a big part of promotion involved the continuation of the story with Patty and her mission to find her father's treasure - and yet this was sold to us separately.

As far as that companion, I can only imagine you are referring to Eldric, because I don't think you get any other companions from the DLC. I actually did not think the Air Temple DLC was guilty of as much as Treasure Isle (mostly because the DLC was awful and did not make any sense in the context of the rest of the game), but if you actually did notice that his companion slot existed before the DLC was released, then that kind of puts that assumption to bed.