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  1. Beiträge anzeigen #21
    banned
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    Zitat Zitat von Larisa Beitrag anzeigen
    They wanted more money. Which is kinda the sole reason a business exists.
    True, but the first 2 Gothics had a big numbers of fans too, mostly in Germany, but also in other European countries. I hate it that they tried to appease the American public.

  2. Beiträge anzeigen #22
    General Avatar von ICFabian
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    Zitat Zitat von Assassin of Kings Beitrag anzeigen
    True, but the first 2 Gothics had a big numbers of fans too, mostly in Germany, but also in other European countries. I hate it that they tried to appease the American public.
    1) "Big numbers" is really not that quantifiable. Seriously, I'd like to take a gander at the sales information before declaring myself on this.

    2) How did they pander to the American public, exactly? By trying to create a larger game world? By investing more in graphics? Surely that's a stereotypical thing to say. Why should Europeans limit themselves to crummy graphics or crammed worlds?

    I really think PB intended to do something great with Gothic 3. This is all second-hand information to me, but I've heard a lot of detail has been put into the Gothic 3 Art book, which has not been translated into the game world.
    Ich habe die Welt schon zweimal gerettet... jetzt bist du an der Reihe.

  3. Beiträge anzeigen #23
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    Yes, it's true that they had the best intentions about G3 and I'm not blaming PB for the failures the game had. If Jowood hadn't forced them to release it so early, things would have surely been different. However, their only mistake is that they also tried to win a public totally different from the one who enjoyed the first 2 games, the way I see it. They focused a bit more on the world detail and graphics than on the story. Though I like G3 overall, the differences between it and its predecessors are noticeable.

    But no matter the mistakes, PB deserve all the admiration because they managed to correct them, and they returned to pleasing their old public again, with Risen.

  4. Beiträge anzeigen #24
    General Avatar von Sakabato
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    Zitat Zitat von Assassin of Kings Beitrag anzeigen
    But no matter the mistakes, PB deserve all the admiration because they managed to correct them, and they returned to pleasing their old public again, with Risen.
    ..And still the old public manage to rant about Risen 2 having muzzleload firearms..Seems Piranha's still won't be getting "Game Of The Year" on their old public's eyes, and most likely please the Americans again..

  5. Beiträge anzeigen #25
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    I don't think that G3 was done only for the money, and American market if it were then they would:
    -Add an arrow that shows you where to do the quest.
    -Not make a branching quests.
    -Put level scaling in.

    All of those things would save them time, and be streamlined for USA market.

  6. Beiträge anzeigen #26
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    Zitat Zitat von Faby Beitrag anzeigen
    Surely that's a stereotypical thing to say. Why should Europeans limit themselves to crummy graphics or crammed worlds
    You are saying it like there were no cost to those. Smaller world can be more polished, and balanced, and it is when you compare G1/G2 to bigger games.

    As for the graphics G2 looked about as good at other games at that time, so PB had never go with low tier graphics, the cost of making decent looking gfx had just increased with time, the approach of PB didn't really change.

  7. Beiträge anzeigen #27
    Cat  Avatar von Larisa
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    Zitat Zitat von Assassin of Kings Beitrag anzeigen
    True, but the first 2 Gothics had a big numbers of fans
    Apparently that doesn't translate automatically into money.


    Zitat Zitat von Faby Beitrag anzeigen
    I really think PB intended to do something great with Gothic 3.
    Zitat Zitat von Assassin of Kings Beitrag anzeigen
    Yes, it's true that they had the best intentions about G3
    I'm not so sure. I don't know if they ever considered joinable guilds, really interesting quests, NPCs with real depth, a better put-together main story and they all had to throw these away 'cause they run out of time. Funny how the story/quests/npcs department gets lazy but the shaders/textures/polygons manages to pull through.


    Zitat Zitat von Assassin of Kings Beitrag anzeigen
    But no matter the mistakes, PB deserve all the admiration because they managed to correct them, and they returned to pleasing their old public again, with Risen.
    Hmmm, they managed to correct some mistakes. It's just a good game, when everybody expects from them greatness. I guess it's the curse of being a prodigy.
    Was G1 a stroke of luck? In G2 they used the same recipe, improving some small things here and there, but the story wasn't as original. In G3 they tried epicness, the crown of the series, yet we all know what came out. A good game but just that. R1... a good game, but just that. R2... ?
    I don't mind better graphics, but when these come at the expense of other things in a game...

  8. Beiträge anzeigen #28
    General Avatar von Sakabato
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    Zitat Zitat von Larisa Beitrag anzeigen
    Funny how the story/quests/npcs department gets lazy but the shaders/textures/polygons manages to pull through.
    Not really...^^'

  9. Beiträge anzeigen #29
    Knight Commander
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    Exactly. Most of the models are badly optimised (too high poly, some models were partially optimised, others wereoptimised well and yet others weren't optimised at all), there are texture problems (too many bald people, grainy textures, some textures looking odd), the metal shine of armour is painted over the colour texture (or probably 'baked') instead of being calculated realtime, many initial post processing problems which were corrected later, etc. So, no, the graphics department didn't exactly pull through either.
    My skin for Opera Web Browser.[Bild: tOC_sig1.jpg]

  10. Homepage besuchen Beiträge anzeigen #30
    Mythos Avatar von Onisuzume
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    Zitat Zitat von Faby Beitrag anzeigen
    2) How did they pander to the American public, exactly? By trying to create a larger game world? By investing more in graphics? Surely that's a stereotypical thing to say. Why should Europeans limit themselves to crummy graphics or crammed worlds?
    Sort-of.
    USAsians prefer the "happy happy" graphics while the europeans prefer the "GrimDark" graphics.

  11. Beiträge anzeigen #31
    Cat  Avatar von Larisa
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    Zitat Zitat von NatDis Beitrag anzeigen
    So, no, the graphics department didn't exactly pull through either.
    Some of those I'd put into the engine department.
    I remember some time ago (days/weeks) there was a talk in here (or it was in Risen forums?) about who had the most gorgeous graphics, G3 or R.

    Ok, there weren't many things optimized about how it looked. Tell me that the story is also not optimized because they didn't have time. Tell me the guild system is not optimized. Tell me the quests are not optimized. Tell me that I can find spots of greatness about these that indicate PB was planning so much more but run out of time. 1 month before game release they though "hey, there's no time for that super intricate quests, let's make the hero collect 10 sacks of grain, 12 chalices, 5 bottles of milk and so on".

  12. Beiträge anzeigen #32
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    Zitat Zitat von Larisa Beitrag anzeigen
    Some of those I'd put into the engine department.
    I remember some time ago (days/weeks) there was a talk in here (or it was in Risen forums?) about who had the most gorgeous graphics, G3 or R.
    CP had tweaked the graphics.

    Zitat Zitat von Larisa Beitrag anzeigen
    Tell me that the story is also not optimized because they didn't have time. Tell me the guild system is not optimized. Tell me the quests are not optimized. Tell me that I can find spots of greatness about these that indicate PB was planning so much more but run out of time. 1 month before game release they though "hey, there's no time for that super intricate quests, let's make the hero collect 10 sacks of grain, 12 chalices, 5 bottles of milk and so on".
    There is much more Quests in G3 what is so strange about needing more time to make all of them interesting? Not all quests are fed-ex in G3.

    The story overall is good, but it lacked pacing, and details something that could use more time, no?

    The guild system in G3 is good, reputation that you have to wage when you make quest choices, plenty of them branch, more advanced system then do all quest in all camps except for one that is obviously the deciding one. It would be nice if there were more things related to reputation then buying armour, being able to learn some skills, talking to Kan, and visiting Ishtar, but that would not require the changes to the system itself.

  13. Beiträge anzeigen #33
    Skinhead  Avatar von Hellbilly
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    Zitat Zitat von Kraszu Beitrag anzeigen
    The story overall is good, but it lacked pacing, and details something that could use more time, no?
    What story? Really, there is precious little story to speak of, and what's there is told in a very lacklustre manner. And what is there is lacking is depth, dynamic and actual plot in the story (instead of trite and dull, stilted progression through a few short "story-spots" amidst a lot of wandering and fighting), it's just no good. And very strongly seems like a thing they didn't spend much time on.

    And I wouldn't call the faction-system in G3 good, not in the state it was on release. Maybe at some early point they had good concepts aplenty, I'm quite sure they had, but few of them carried over to the game resulting in a rather half-assed faction experience. And the story doesn't fare any better.

    Gotta agree with Larisa here. Calling the story and world mechanics "unoptimized" or "a bit rough around the edges" or "a tad unpolished" is a statement that comes from playing some other (vanilla) G3 than the one I bought.
    Geändert von Hellbilly (24.05.2011 um 15:34 Uhr)

  14. Beiträge anzeigen #34
    Ranger Avatar von Nigel52
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    I love reading these "discussions."
    Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for another.

  15. Beiträge anzeigen #35
    Cat  Avatar von Larisa
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    Zitat Zitat von Kraszu Beitrag anzeigen
    CP had tweaked the graphics.
    CP tweaked dialogs, quests, and other stuff too. But I'm curious, I'm gonna take a screenshot with all details on high, 1.07 and 1.74. Iirc, G3 looked pretty good even without a single patch.

    Zitat Zitat von Kraszu Beitrag anzeigen
    There is much more Quests in G3 what is so strange about needing more time to make all of them interesting?
    So, quantity over quality is good?

    Zitat Zitat von Kraszu Beitrag anzeigen
    The guild system in G3 is good
    The guild system in G3 is bad, starting with the fact that you can't join any guild. Branching, decisions, consequences... if you think they are good in G3, I think they are bad.


    "It wasn't meant to be a Gothic 1 or 2 -- ever!" said Mr. Rueve. And that's why it failed to be a great game, in my opinion.
    They concentrated too much on graphics, on free roaming (copy/pasted cities, do one and move to the next to do kinda the same thing), on one big level (and, with R2, they go back to loading areas, which is smart imho) that screwed with performance, on music (orchestra, lead singer, band (they are great songs some of them, but overall the soundtrack sounds too pompous and epic)).

  16. Beiträge anzeigen #36
    Veteran
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    Zitat Zitat von Larisa Beitrag anzeigen
    So, quantity over quality is good?
    Reading without context is bad, you were talking about how time would not change that.

    Zitat Zitat von Larisa Beitrag anzeigen
    The guild system in G3 is bad, starting with the fact that you can't join any guild. Branching, decisions, consequences... if you think they are good in G3, I think they are bad.
    To get Orcs reputation you have to collaborate with them, and destroy some rebel camps, then you get armour for killing all of the Rebels leaders how is that so different then joining the fraction?

  17. Beiträge anzeigen #37
    Cat  Avatar von Larisa
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    Zitat Zitat von Kraszu Beitrag anzeigen
    Reading without context is bad, you were talking about how time would not change that.
    And given more time, they would've improved existing quests, like "fetch me x things"?
    That's not a good way to do things, imho. I'd go for "let's do 50 very good quests and, if we have the time, will add more good quests" instead of "let's do 500 stupid quests and if we have time we'll improve them".

  18. Beiträge anzeigen #38
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    Zitat Zitat von Larisa Beitrag anzeigen
    And given more time, they would've improved existing quests, like "fetch me x things"?
    That's not a good way to do things, imho. I'd go for "let's do 50 very good quests and, if we have the time, will add more good quests" instead of "let's do 500 stupid quests and if we have time we'll improve them".
    They obviously didn't plan all quest before they had started to develop the game. The hero was going to the continent, and they wanted continent to be significantly bigger then Khorinis. I don't know what exactly went wrong with quest, and story but I am pretty sure that those things comes in development you don't put development on hold until you finish all of the story, and quests.

  19. Beiträge anzeigen #39
    Cat  Avatar von Larisa
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    Zitat Zitat von Kraszu Beitrag anzeigen
    you don't put development on hold until you finish all of the story, and quests.
    You don't. You have to plan from start towards small and good or big and hopefully good. But "they wanted continent to be significantly bigger then Khorinis".

    So I'm gonna say it again: it is not such a smart thing to do, create a big land and then think how you will fill it with stories instead of creating a story and do the game after it.
    In the first case you get the classic big filled-with-boring-crpg-fantasy-clichés game.

  20. Beiträge anzeigen #40
    Schwertmeister Avatar von bigsnappy
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    Here's another interview:
    GameStar Interview with Mike Hoge from Piranha Bytes

    Mike Hoge currently works for Piranha Bytes as a project leader. He was also responsible for Gothic 3. GameStar had an interview with him that appeared in the paper magazine (06/2011). The English translation is now available for you here on World of Gothic.

    GameStar: What significance do opinions of the community have during the development process ?

    Mike Hoge : Of course we let ourselves be influenced by the opinion of the community. It is a complex, partly subconscious thinking process, during which we react to certain currents. Single opinions can play a role as much as democratic majorities, because individual opinions can be food for thought as well.

    GameStar : How strongly has this influenced the development of Gothic 2 and 3?

    Mike Hoge : The essential changes, which we have implemented in Gothic games, are not a consequence of the feedback of the community. Especially in the first years we had already decided on the changes, before someone in the forum wrote something about it. In the case of Gothic 3 for instance, the decision was made to make a big world because we wanted to include horse riding. Unfortunately, for known reasons it wasn’t meant to be.

    GameStar: What, specificly, did come out of the community?

    Mike Hoge : We mostly reacted, when many people nagged about adjustment features or interfaces. The proposals were less like "Put in some dwarfs and elves", but way more like things such as "I want to be able to turn off the messages."

    GameStar: Are there community-suggestions, which you have implemented and regretted afterwards !

    Mike Hoge : No. For our mistakes in our games, we are responsible, first of all.

    GameStar : Are there moments, in which you ignore the influence of the community, because you are convinced of your ideas ?

    Mike Hoge : Yes. Sometimes the idea can be that good, but with twenty men and a relative small budget you cannot effectuate everything in the desired quality. That is forgotten easily. Also there are decisions, like the pirate scenario from Risen 2, from which it is clear that we will lose some supporters, because they simply say: "I think pirates are stupid." In exchange we hope others will join, who say: "Finally we get a pirate role playing game." We do not make the games just for the community, but also for ourselves.
    translated by bigsnappy
    Everything is relative... until it bites.
    Geändert von bigsnappy (28.05.2011 um 12:49 Uhr)

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