[PowerGamer]

Hmm... I don't know. Is it necessary to have a credit card in order to have a steam account?

No. You do not need a credit card to register Steam account and most major Steamworks exclusive games are also sold on DVD with a key that you can use to activate the game on Steam. Chances are high that Risen 2 will also feature such DVD version but to be sure I asked doberlec to confirm this (see the third post in this topic) which he has not done yet.

[Ariogaisus]

Can't we just buy non-DRM version from GOG

[foobar]

Can't we just buy non-DRM version from GOG

Not if DS won't let us. Which they most likely won't. I doubt they have the style that CDPR has.

[catalinux]

So... you want me to install Steam, create an account, pay for renting the game, download the game, and wait for the server to play the game? No way, I enjoy freedom.

[SlamDunk]

People are still calling Steam "spyware"? Such an impressive display of ignorance

[UrukGox]

Not if DS won't let us. Which they most likely won't. I doubt they have the style that CDPR has.

CDPR had an excellent advertising campaign, which began more than a year before release W2.
Where is this W2 disappeared?
Sep 16, 2009

People are still calling Steam "spyware"? Such and impressive display of ignorance

.. and how to call it, when they follow me and watch what I do with my game? I'll take that game, but for 4.5€.

[triac]

I will not buy any game that comes with DRM.

Umm... why are you here again? Posting about Risen related stuff? Risen used TAGES so you surely didn't buy it. And if you're consequent you also didn't borrow it.

Wow, this THE worst decision you could have made. I bought Risen on release, paid 26 pounds for it plus shipping, Risen 2 I will now pick up in a bargain bin.

Risen. TAGES. 3 activations.

Steam is not secure. Cracking it is a copy-paste job for warez groups, even multiplayer isn't secure!

Neither is any other DRM. But unlike the others steam is able to prevent leaks. It'll be cracked on day one. Fine. Other games get cracked day minus 2 or worse.

wait for files stored on Valve servers to download (often up to 2GB of data necessary to launch the game which for some reason is missing from the retail disc).

Maybe if you decide to use a completely outdated Team Fortress 2 DVD so those 2 GB were in fact patches. Either that or prove your claims.

Nice spyware.

Anybody can write "[random program] Spyware!!!!!" or "Speakerpankratz is lulzsec member!!!!!".
If you post allegations then prove them.

Oh yes, Steam tends to cause nothing but problems, so that's a good idea for sure!

Yes, and those millions and millions of users use steam because they have a problem fetish...

There is no such thing as secure for the publisher. Risen 2 WILL be cracked day 1. I am ready to bet on it.

As I already said. Steam prevents leaks. And I think publishers fear leaks more than day one cracks.

Which is not the case.

Do the users here generally have problems with proving their allegations?

Or you could just take your time and make a game which doesn't need patches. Or are you deliberately launching it unfinished?

Even console games get patches now. Still stuck in 1998? There are just no bug free games (unless they are rather simple).

How would you feel about someone asking you for your personal ID code, address and bank account number when you go to the cinema to see a movie? We ask for this just once, then you can come and see the movie again on the same data.

What are you even talking about? This comparison doesn't really work.
Game: digital, at home.
Cinema: physical, not at home.
Also steam doesn't ask you for any ID, address, bank account, whatever.

In addition to the general problems with DRM, Steam also complicates matters for people with no or small internet connection.

Let's think. Someone I know who plays game but doesn't have internet... nobody.
Do such people really exist? I only hear about them when people are complaining about steam. But I never met one of those guys.

It is virtually not practically usable on PCs without fast internet connections.

I think in 2011 the majority of the people have access to something faster then ISDN.

Buying the game will not support the developer but the publisher and its DRM policy.

So it doesn't make any difference for the developer if a game sells one or one million copies? I don't think so. I bet they get some kind of royalties.

Hmm... I don't know. Is it necessary to have a credit card in order to have a steam account?

Of course not. In order to get a Steam account all you need is to pick a user name, password and an e-mail dress. Nothing more.

I don't think so. There are other payment systems available, AFAIK, but I'm not sure they're better (infamous PayPal, for instance).

Then just use PaySafe cards.

I will never "buy" a game only to find out that I cannot play it anymore if the day comes where Valve goes under - don't say they never will, nobody knows for sure.

Steam said they might release a patch to make all games work without steam. And in case this won't happen:
I bet the publisher will do something about it.

[glumetzul]

Buying the game will not support the developer but the publisher and its DRM policy. Buying DRM games results in more DRM games in the future. The only way to prevent publishers from using DRM is to hit them where it hurts: in their purse.

You are right there but the volume of sold copies on R2 will affect PB as well in some way or another (from being given an even larger budget for an even greater game to not being given any budget at all and developing point and click adventures as a hobby).

I will play R2 without the DRM (and if you're gonna ask me why the answer is "because I can"). And since I have good feelings towards PB, I'll actually even pay for it hoping that they will develop brilliant games in the future (although forgeting that payment thing would be as easy as drinking water from the sink instead buying bottled water).

I know your approach is the honorable one but it also means sacrificing something (in this case playing a game you like) for making a point. I think that a majority of gamers are "enslaved" by publishers and will pay for whatever crap they are going to push down their throat (like this DRM thing). So I'm not gonna stand against the current.

[foobar]

Umm... why are you here again? Posting about Risen related stuff? Risen used TAGES so you surely didn't buy it.
[...]
Risen. TAGES. 3 activations.

Half-truths are always so tricky to debunk. Yes, Risen used Tagès. But: No, the retail version of Risen did not use the DRM-Module of Tagès. It only required the DVD in the drive. No activations. No limit of activations.

But unlike the others steam is able to prevent leaks. It'll be cracked on day one. Fine. Other games get cracked day minus 2 or worse.

Another half-truth. Steam (like any DRM) would only protect against leaks if the game were only available via Steam's online distribution system. But it is not. There will be normal retail version, with tiny little boxes around them, standing in the stores. And there, they will arrive long before the official release and one of these copies will be cracked just as any other retail DRM game.

And there would be much better ways to protect the game against leaks that do not require DRM.

Let's think. Someone I know who plays game but doesn't have internet... nobody.
Do such people really exist?

Yes, they do exist. And your smug post and lame attempts to ridicule them will not make them disappear. Or enhance your argument, for that matter.

Steam said they might release a patch to make all games work without steam. And in case this won't happen:
I bet the publisher will do something about it.

Sure. Because we've never had unkept promises of a faceless profit oriented organisation before, right?

[drunknmunkey]

Steam said they might release a patch to make all games work without steam. And in case this won't happen:
I bet the publisher will do something about it.

Yes of course the publisher will provide support for a 5+ year old game.. o.O

But you're missing the point with your post, about the fact that many people don't want to be forced to use Steam just to be able to play a game when Steam provides no gameplay positives - only fluff to make it seem like it's a good move. It's not like Steam provides better-looking graphics or anything gameplay-related - so why should people blindly accept installing it?

You can speak positively about Steam all you want, but fact is that us paying customers need to install unwanted software just to prove that we haven't pirated the game - we got a receipt for Gods sake, that should be proof enough. They look at us with suspicious eyes, while the pirates go on about playing the game without being checked. The wrong people are affected.
Would you like to have a man following you around in every store just to make sure you don't steal anything, only because some people steal stuff?
We shouldn't suffer, the pirates should. And until they find a proper way of dealing with this problem, the customers should not be affected negatively in any way.
"We love to get your money, but we don't trust you - so please install this software"

You see nothing wrong about this?

[triac]

There will be normal retail version, with tiny little boxes around them, standing in the stores. And there, they will arrive long before the official release and one of these copies will be cracked just as any other retail DRM game.

The point of this thread here is to tell people that Risen 2 will use Steam. Did it say the retail version won't use steam? No. So I assume it'll use steam too. Making Risen 2 a 100% Steamworks game. So the only thing you'll get prior to the release will be a worthless image file of the DVD.

Sure. Because we've never had unkept promises of a faceless profit oriented organisation before, right?

You missed the little word "might", did you? And there's still the publisher.

[Maladiq]

Do the users here generally have problems with proving their allegations?


Even console games get patches now. Still stuck in 1998? There are just no bug free games (unless they are rather simple).


What are you even talking about? This comparison doesn't really work.

My dear DS employee, whoever you might be. Allow me to answer.

1. Actually... it is your job to disprove my allegation. Show me a single game which was not pirated because of the copy protection. I dare you .

2. I needed no patch for Risen 1. It played well. And I am sure if they will have a big enough beta testing session, R2 won't need it either. Unless they WANT to release an unfinished game.

3. Yes it does work. Give it some more thought. I am sure you are smart enough to understand me without having to explain basics to you.

[foobar]

So the only thing you'll get prior to the release will be a worthless image file of the DVD.

Unless the entire image is encrypted against a secret key before giving it to the pressing plant, the image won't be wortless but just any DRM protected and crackable game like all the others. And if the image were encrypted, you'd already have your protection. Without necessity for Steamworks.

[triac]

My dear DS employee, whoever you might be.

So my arguments are that good that you think I'm some PR guy?

1. Actually... it is your job to disprove my allegation. Show me a single game which was not pirated because of the copy protection. I dare you .

What? You make an allegation without any proofs and I'm the one supposed to prove you wrong?
Do you also sue someone and then go "I'm not going to prove that you did it, you are going to prove that you didn't do it"?.
No. That's bullstuff. You have the burden of proof here.

2. I needed no patch for Risen 1. It played well. And I am sure if they will have a big enough beta testing session, R2 won't need it either. Unless they WANT to release an unfinished game.

Yet they still released a patch.

3. Yes it does work. Give it some more thought. I am sure you are smart enough to understand me without having to explain basics to you.

You can't compare ID, address and bank account with an IP and E-Mail.

Unless the entire image is encrypted against a secret key before giving it to the pressing plant, the image won't be wortless but just any DRM protected and crackable game like all the others. And if the image were encrypted, you'd already have your protection. Without necessity for Steamworks.

Unless... if... how about stopping the speculation and telling the name of a steamworks only game which has been leaked?

Here's a little list of games you can start searching with (obviously "(only STEAM version)" don't count):
http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=1712878

[Maladiq]

So my arguments are that good that you think I'm some PR guy?

Exactly And since I can tell you are not the master of logic and reasoning, I will let you know that isn't a compliment.

What? You make an allegation without any proofs and I'm the one supposed to prove you wrong?
Do you also sue someone and then go "I'm not going to prove that you did it, you are going to prove that you didn't do it"?.
No. That's bullstuff. You have the burden of proof here.

Your reasoning resembles that of the Christians who say "prove me that god doesn't exist". Therefore I will do you a good and let you get a glimpse into the adult way of reasoning.

In a debate, proof MUST be brought not by someone who brings a negative argument (example: there are no black people), but by someone who brings a positive one (here is a picture of a black dude).

In our case this translates to: I say "there are NO games which haven't been pirated because of DRM". You should say: "My friend, you are misinformed, here is THIS TITLE which has survived piracy because of DRM".

Yet they still released a patch.

Only because they didn't have a proper beta, ergo didn't have time to test all the possible hardware configurations. But in terms of quest bugs, I found only 1 which became impossible for me to replicate.

You can't compare ID, address and bank account with an IP and E-Mail.

What if steam suddenly decides to make mandatory a payment modality for every account? Then you will make a credit card and they will have access to all your information. Similar to those dumbasses who give their phone numbers to google and facebook when they are asked.

[triac]

Exactly And since I can tell you are not the master of logic and reasoning, I will let you know that isn't a compliment.

Usually neither are the people who immediately think that someone related to a company is posting just because they have a different opinion.

Your reasoning resembles that of the Christians who say "prove me that god doesn't exist".

Aren't you the christian at the moment?
You're saying "steam is whatever. Prove me that it isn't like that."


Usually christians have at least some argument like "The moon. How did it get there? Must have been god."

In a debate, proof MUST be brought not by someone who brings a negative argument (example: there are no black people), but by someone who brings a positive one (here is a picture of a black dude).

I use the court approach.
If someone says something nonsensical without backing it up at all, why should I waste my time trying to prove him wrong while he didn't even bother to prove his point? It's like "Here. I wrote some nonsense in 5 seconds. Now spend 30 minutes gathering stuff the prove me wrong".

What if steam suddenly decides to make mandatory a payment modality for every account? Then you will make a credit card and they will have access to all your information.

Oh, the "What if". Does steam do it? No. So what's the point?
You can "what if" all the way back to the big bang.

Saying that something is bad just because it could possibly do something? I thought you're a reasoning pro. Thinking about things that could possibly (but unlikely) happen and then using them as arguments doesn't seem pro.

You shouldn't buy Risen 2 even if it wouldn't have any DRM. Why? With every patch the developer could include a rootkit or something similar.

Fact: The only data you need to give steam is an E-Mail and an IP. And this data is stored somewhere on a server. Probably no valve employee will ever see it unless there is a problem with something.
While at your cinema an actual human always comes into contact with your data. And this data isn't nearly as anonymous as an E-Mail and IP.

That's the only data you need to give steam. Nothing more (unless you give them more) and it has been like this since 2004.

Unless... if... how about stopping the speculation and telling the name of a steamworks only game which has been leaked?

Here's a little list of games you can start searching with (obviously "(only STEAM version)" don't count):
http://forums.steampowered.com/forum....php?t=1712878

I think something went wrong with your quote here.

[Zocky]

uf, this topic is really starting to heat up, heh.

Also, lets be clear about one thing: although many says how they will not buy it, they will, most of them. It was always like that, and it will always be like that. :P j/k

Ah, the never ending question o DRM. Not sure what to say. I'm still strongly opposing drms, which limits you how many times you can install it, or which needs constant internet connection (and possibly prevents you from even saving a game if you are offline).

BUT. I did change my mind about steam. I still have some negative opinions about steam, strongest being that soon you will have a lot of similar apps, so you will soon end up with, like 10 apps like steam, which is seriously stupid.

(i should actually use BUT here :P). Howerver, if they had to choose drm, i'm happy it's steam. Yes, sure, it has problems, but, it's not just drm either. It's a digital shop aswell, wich brings many benefits. Like easier patching, as someone said, many games have special weekend deals (for example, i got Portal 2 for less then 19$ - it's 37 now ), i also bought some smaller games for almost for free (like 2 or 4$ - Trine for example) which i probably would never buy....and others.

So all in all, i dont think for me anything changes; and even though that was my argument as well....i don't know anyone who has worse internet connection then me around where i live..and even i have 1/1mbit). And even then, you only need it for patches, if you buy DVD version. And to register that one time, if you don't already have steam (and you don't need awesome connection for that anywaY).

So yeah, i think if they had to chosoe drm, steam was best solution....i do agree it won't really stop piracy, but i do actually believe it will increase sales and it brings more benefits to you aswell, unlike any other drm.

[Maladiq]

Allow me to refresh your memory.

we regularly evaluate copy protection systems on the market for our product portfolio. In our role as publisher for entertainment software, a set of basic requirements has to be met by the technology we deploy:

Reliability: The scheme has to be proven stable over multiple years and many products.

Which is not the case.

Do the users here generally have problems with proving their allegations?

1. Actually... it is your job to disprove my allegation. Show me a single game which was not pirated because of the copy protection. I dare you .

Aren't you the christian at the moment?
You're saying "steam is whatever. Prove me that it isn't like that."

So. As you can see, doberlec was talking about GENERALITIES when it comes to copy protection. He was talking about the reliability of DRM solutions in general, not about steam. I responded to this, saying there is no such thing as an uncracked DRM game.

Then you came in and asked me to prove a negative fact. My friend. If you claim there is a giant marshmallow bear who created the universe, you must prove it. If I claim there is no such thing, then you would have to prove me wrong. Since you insisted on bringing the term "court" into discussion, lets take the example of the procedure of proving the property right of a terrain. You are basically asking me to prove that anyone else in the world IS NOT the owner of the terrain, this way proving that I am the owner. See the problem with your reasoning?

And then, you tell me I was saying "steam is whatever". Nope. I don't give a crap about steam. I was talking about DRM in general. You failed to follow the conversation.

I use the court approach.
If someone says something nonsensical without backing it up at all, why should I waste my time trying to prove him wrong while he didn't even bother to prove his point? It's like "Here. I wrote some nonsense in 5 seconds. Now spend 30 minutes gathering stuff the prove me wrong".

Actually YOU are the one claiming something. It is common sense (call it an axiom) that copy protection fails. Then YOU come here yelling "OMFG()&(^&^&$% STEAM IS BEST, YOU HATERS, NO ONE PIRATES STEAM GAMES". Ergo, YOU are the one who makes a claim. Ergo YOU have to prove it.

Oh, the "What if". Does steam do it? No. So what's the point?
You can "what if" all the way back to the big bang.

Saying that something is bad just because it could possibly do something? I thought you're a reasoning pro. Thinking about things that could possibly (but unlikely) happen and then using them as arguments doesn't seem pro.

As long as there is the possibility of something wrong happening, why take the chance? I'll take the classical example. You want to get your blood tested (periodic medical inspection). But the nurse tells you there is a 1% chance you would get AIDS during the procedure. Would you take the chance?

It is the same with the game. If there is a chance I will have to get my personal info in order to play something I paid for, then no thanks. If there is a chance I will not be able to play the game because I said I didn't like a texture on the official forum, then no thanks. And so on.


About the quote, just forgot to delete it. Fixed.

[Speakerpankratz]

Neither is any other DRM. But unlike the others steam is able to prevent leaks. It'll be cracked on day one. Fine. Other games get cracked day minus 2 or worse.

I don't recall Risen getting cracked way before release. Or any EA game. Or even GFWL games which used Zero Day Piracy Protection, like Dead Rising 2.

Maybe if you decide to use a completely outdated Team Fortress 2 DVD so those 2 GB were in fact patches. Either that or prove your claims.

Anybody can write "[random program] Spyware!!!!!" or "Speakerpankratz is lulzsec member!!!!!".
If you post allegations then prove them.

The whole world knows this, yet here you are, trying to act like the Earth is flat and yelling "prove me otherwise!!!" from the rooftops. Buy Metro 2033, for example. That game had no patches on release, but due to Steam DRM's nature, approximately 1.5 GB of relevant data necessary for the game to run resides on Valve's servers.

When it comes to Steam, there's no " activation". EA games use activation. You install the game, connect to internet for a second to "activate" the exe, play. Same with GFWL games. With Steam, you have to intall the third party bloatware, update it, then wait for the files to decrypt, then download the missing data. All of that can take HOURS for those without broadband. The larger the game, the worse it gets. That's no "activation".
On top of that, you have to run Steam before running the game. Which adds insult to injury.

Yes, and those millions and millions of users use steam because they have a problem fetish...

Ah, the infamous "but Steam has millions of users!!!" argument Valve fanboys use.
I'm one of those "millions of Steam users". I use it because some games I wanted to play (like Metro 2033) FORCED ME to install that thing. MILLIONS of people are in the same boat. No wonder the number of Steam accounts is so high if it's either BUY the game or PIRATE the game. Some choose to BUY and put up with this nonsense. I certainly won't anymore. Every Steam game is a bargain bin purchase for me from now on, like I said before.

[foobar]

Ah, the infamous "but Steam has millions of users!!!" argument Valve fanboys use.

"People, eat feces! Millions of flies can't be wrong!"