[emusan]

All other reasons.....i simply don't find valid. Ofcourse, this is just my personal opinion.

While you do get to have your own opinion, may I ask why the lack of any /real/ working offline mode is not valid in your mind?

[MisterFish]

Who the heck cares what the reasons are? This back and forth and attempts at convincing those of us that are against this that we're wrong are pointless. The simple fact is that there are some of us that find Steam unacceptable. You can argue back and forth all day; you can say the reasons are 'invalid', 'ridiculous', or 'silly' as much as you like. You can tout the virtues of Steam all you want.

The bottom line is this: for many of us, Steam is a step too far as a requirement for a single player game that isn't made by Valve. We're just letting the devs and publishers know that there are some lost sales due to this scheme that aren't just due to piracy. If they want to take that into consideration for their next game, great. If they don't care, then they've lost some customers. Simple as that.

[Aetherian]

Yes, IMO it is a myth which seems more like paranoia and the persecution complex to me.

Bullshit. I do a search on medical insurance on the internet, check out a few places and all of a sudden I get get calls from salespeople wanting to sell me insurance when I never even filled anything out or requested that an agent call me, just viewed a few websites selling insurance clicking on links. Coincidence? I think not.

[emusan]

Bullshit. I do a search on medical insurance on the internet, check out a few places and all of a sudden I get get calls from salespeople wanting to sell me insurance when I never even filled anything out or requested that an agent call me, just viewed a few websites selling insurance clicking on links. Coincidence? I think not.

lol you're using the internet wrong then, you need to use protection.

[emusan]

I do. I think I will get the No Script again though, I used to use it but stopped as I find it kind of a hassle, but it's definitely good to have when visiting some websites.

I think I did start to fill out one form, but stopped and saved it just after inputting my ph# and that's how they got it. But I got calls from different insurance places so they must share the info somehow, like a cookie or something placed on my computer. One reason why I do regular spyware scans..........

no script + ABP = the best. But if you go around putting phone numbers on forms you're just asking for a phone call. And your cookies would never have anything to do with your phone...

EDIT: why delete post?

[glumetzul]

So the whole business of online advertising and behavioural tracking is also a myth then is it? If companies are prepared to pay such sums to obtain people's web and search history, it should be obvious that their gaming activities would have as much value.

For employers, there are several cases where such data would be of value:

• When recruiting, someone who spends large amounts of time gaming or who plays "controversial" titles (e.g. any shooter-sim providing scare story headlines) could be passed over in favour of someone else. Some companies spend thousands of dollars to vet recruits (background checks, psychometric testing) so a few hundred to access activity on Steam wouldn't be a problem;
• Deterring abuse of sick leave - if a game is released and an employee takes that day off sick, checking that they're not spending that day playing the game;
• Employee discipline - anyone underperforming could have their gaming history scrutinised to see if it could support disciplinary action (i.e. repeated gaming late at night);
• Inappropriate conduct - some jobs (solicitor, judge, police officer) require people to adhere to codes of conduct in their private lives - gaming activity could be used (and abused) for people in such positions.

The case in the first link had nothing to do with Paypal. With the others, Valve's response to a dispute concerning a single game was to disable the person's entire collection (which would also include any retail-purchased Steamworks games).

I really really don't believe that they can afford to sell a single individual personal info to a certain company. Because that kind of "service" can only bring considerable income if done on a pretty large scale. And if that kind of service would be made available for general customers it would be a matter of time untill that info would go public. And that would be a great strike to the public image of a company like Valve.

What they can do without any problems is sell all clients personal data to large companies and without public knowledge of that. And usually what that leads to is the so much feared "targeted advertising".

As far as I'm concerned, targeted advertising is a good thing if done properly. Problem is that still to few companies actually do it. But I'd rather get ads concerning things that I might be interesting of instead of ads to Viagra, gambling systems or Banks.

[Ozzie]

Truth to be told, I wish it was rather no DRM than Steam.
But considering all the DRM solutions I had the "pleasure" encountering over the years, Steam is one of the few that barely bugged me.

Contrary to Starforce - it made it necessary to install a new DVD drive into my PC! It also prevented games from running if you used a more up-to-date operating system than the driver was programmed for. Yeah, I know, thankfully this DRM went out of fasion.

Contrary to Tagès - same thing like with Starforce: newer operating system, no go. Windows 7 still bugs me every time at startup that I have an incompatible Tagès driver on my system. Dunno how to remove it, though. And not to forget: limited activations.

Let's just say I'm irritated how people were fine with Tagès in Risen, but are enraged over the choice of Steam. Okay, if you have a rather unreliable or limited internet connection, I understand.
But otherwise I think Steam is an improvement.

[foobar]

Truth to be told, I wish it was rather no DRM than Steam.

Yeah, well, for me it's like the discussion which of two dead bodies is more dead than the other.

Contrary to Tagès - same thing like with Starforce: newer operating system, no go.

Let's be honest: Any application can break when you install a new OS. Then you wait for a patch or provide an environment with the old system. Sure, it's bothersome. But no one can prevent you from doing it.

Let's just say I'm irritated how people were fine with Tagès in Risen

As long it comes without DRM (only DVD check), it ranges in the same class as SecuROM. The advantage of Tagès is that it does not have a software blacklist. The disadvantage is that is uses a kernel module. Basically, they're both the same. I don't have a problem with them because my Windows is a gaming system only.

[Assassin of Kings]

Bullshit. I do a search on medical insurance on the internet, check out a few places and all of a sudden I get get calls from salespeople wanting to sell me insurance when I never even filled anything out or requested that an agent call me, just viewed a few websites selling insurance clicking on links. Coincidence? I think not.

Such things never happened to me, but let's say you're right. Even so, you can get spied like that with any service you use on the internet, and not only with Steam. So why being so against Steam as if it was the only internet service that could sell info about you to certain parties?

[Ozzie]

Let's be honest: Any application can break when you install a new OS. Then you wait for a patch or provide an environment with the old system. Sure, it's bothersome. But no one can prevent you from doing it.

Yeah, the application might break, but what if it doesn't? What if the only reason the game doesn't run on a system is the DRM driver? And this isn't a rare occurance at all!
The lack of compatibility with old games is bad enough, we don't need DRM to make sure that it won't run even if it could by itself!

Such things never happened to me, but let's say you're right. Even so, you can get spied like that with any service you use on the internet, and not only with Steam. So why being so against Steam as if it was the only internet service that could sell info about you to certain parties?

Not to forget that it would at least need your credit card details to get your name with some certainty. If you never buy a game with Steam, what's the worry?

[foobar]

What if the only reason the game doesn't run on a system is the DRM driver?

A similar argument could be made against Steam: What if that does not run under a new OS? If MS changes an API, anything that depends on it may stop working. No matter if it's a driver or an application like Steam.

It's always the same with copy protection: Since they do not offer you (as customer) any value, it's particularly bothersome if they cause problems. But as long as the CP only depends on your local operating system, you can at least do something about it. With DRM (no matter if Steam or not), you get an additional dependence on factors outside your sphere of influence.

[emusan]

Contrary to Starforce - it made it necessary to install a new DVD drive into my PC! It also prevented games from running if you used a more up-to-date operating system than the driver was programmed for. Yeah, I know, thankfully this DRM went out of fasion.

Contrary to Tagès - same thing like with Starforce: newer operating system, no go. Windows 7 still bugs me every time at startup that I have an incompatible Tagès driver on my system. Dunno how to remove it, though. And not to forget: limited activations.

Both of those DRM schemes have different levels that developers can choose from. While some developers like to use the full DRM with driver, etc.(which I agree is absurd), some developers(like PB I believe) only use it for a disc check, as its much easier than coding your own from scratch. I have a few things with these DRM schemes, and I don't mind because I can still play it offline whenever I want.

[Assassin of Kings]

Not to forget that it would at least need your credit card details to get your name with some certainty. If you never buy a game with Steam, what's the worry?

In that case, what's the worry if you do buy a game with Steam? If you buy the DVD from a shop and only register it with Steam, you don't need to share any credit card details.

[Talek]

I understand that paying 50e for a game that may eventually cease to be yours sounds like a bad idea and that it can happen, but quite frankly I am not that negative with such thinking. Besides, I play 40$ a year for quakelive subscriptions, am going to pay for SWTOR as well, so I do not find it that big of a deal.

I would also prefer if they used something different (for example, I bought some games via gamesplanet.com which allowed me to DL the files and store them wherever I want, ie. backup hdd instead of Steam). But if that is the reality, I won't be all too unhappy.

[emusan]

I understand that paying 50e for a game that may eventually cease to be yours sounds like a bad idea and that it can happen, but quite frankly I am not that negative with such thinking. Besides, I play 40$ a year for quakelive subscriptions, am going to pay for SWTOR as well, so I do not find it that big of a deal.

I would also prefer if they used something different (for example, I bought some games via gamesplanet.com which allowed me to DL the files and store them wherever I want, ie. backup hdd instead of Steam). But if that is the reality, I won't be all too unhappy.

I thought quake live was free, though I haven't played in awhile...

[Ozzie]

A similar argument could be made against Steam: What if that does not run under a new OS? If MS changes an API, anything that depends on it may stop working. No matter if it's a driver or an application like Steam.

It's always the same with copy protection: Since they do not offer you (as customer) any value, it's particularly bothersome if they cause problems. But as long as the CP only depends on your local operating system, you can at least do something about it. With DRM (no matter if Steam or not), you get an additional dependence on factors outside your sphere of influence.

As long as Valve exists, Steam receives regular updates. It works as well now under Windows 7 as it did under XP.

In that case, what's the worry if you do buy a game with Steam? If you buy the DVD from a shop and only register it with Steam, you don't need to share any credit card details.

Well, I don't quite understand the worries either. Nobody in this thread pointed out so far how Steam might be able to miraculously identify the user with certainty.
And how Steam might be worse than Ebay, Amazon and every other online shop there is, I don't know. And like I said myself, even if you use Steam, you don't have to buy anything from it.

Both of those DRM schemes have different levels that developers can choose from. While some developers like to use the full DRM with driver, etc.(which I agree is absurd), some developers(like PB I believe) only use it for a disc check, as its much easier than coding your own from scratch. I have a few things with these DRM schemes, and I don't mind because I can still play it offline whenever I want.

Good to know. Thanks!

[Talek]

Quake live is/was free but they made us pay for no-ads and additional features... which actually gave us enough goods for the price, especially those who are quite a bit more into it than just casual play.

[foobar]

As long as Valve exists, Steam receives regular updates. It works as well now under Windows 7 as it did under XP.

Not quite true. As long as Valve exists and keeps earning enough money with Steam, they will (probably) support it. And similar things can be said about the other major copy protection systems. Tagès, for instance, also updated their drivers for newer Windows versions.

[emusan]

Good to know. Thanks!

Yeah, games I find that I want that have the full DRM schemes including the driver I usually buy and then pirate, as the pirated versions usually don't have the drivers.

[Michael Rüve]

Yeah, games I find that I want that have the full DRM schemes including the driver I usually buy and then pirate, as the pirated versions usually don't have the drivers.

Which is technically illegal but will usually not get you sued. *shrug*