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  1. #1 Zitieren
    Knight Avatar von TheDoctor
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    http://forum.worldofplayers.de/forum...d.php?t=360519

    The above link takes you to my older thread: " Shouldn't DeepSilver put more effort into advertising 'RISEN'?". I think it's time for a new one, seeing as Risen II is now undisclosed. In retrospective, I think DeepSilver made a half-assed job to advertise Risen. They made a few improvement from JoWood though, such as adding an official website and perhaps arranging a bit more interviews with international gaming magazines.

    However, as usual, Piranha Bytes chose to keep Risen a secret to the world until the very end. That is, they were very secretitive with gameplay videos and such until the months before the release. This was a failure. They should have presented gameplay trailers early as this is very important to players - which can be seen by reading the comments to any CGI-trailer at Gametrailers: "no gameplay? pass!"

    And DeepSilver failed to press certain important points such as the tremendous voice acting group with several actors from The Lord of The Rings and a few other good ones as well. Riding on the LotR fan-wave would have probably generated a great deal of interest. Also, they could have pressed the point that the manuscript was translated by the daughter of Terry Pratchett. All of this went mostly unnoticed through the advertising campaign.

    So there are basically two issues here: Faulty communication efforts (expand the website, make official forum, translate everything to english) and faulty selection of information ("John Rys-Davis" is more interesting than "30+ spells"). These are what DeepSilver and Piranha Bytes together should focus about. A game, even a bad one, can receive great sales and worldwide acknowledgmenet solely on good advertisement! This is fact. Use it.

    Now let's see what will happen for Risen II. Keep the discussion flowing.
    My Risen short stories
    Gnork & Blargina part: 1, 2, 3
    An unusual meeting (pdf)
    TheDoctor ist offline Geändert von TheDoctor (23.08.2010 um 18:45 Uhr)

  2. #2 Zitieren
    Deus Avatar von Maladiq
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    Voted§dito

    It would be really nice if doberlec will get over our past differences and visit our boards once again. Everybody here is a PB fan and wants the best for them and their games.

    It would be great if someone from DS would chat with the community and come up with an advertising strategy.
    For the most recent Elex news, the new Piranha Bytes RPG, visit us at World of Elex!!!
    Maladiq ist offline

  3. #3 Zitieren
    Knight Commander
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    It's not us DeepSilver should try to influence.
    They should get new fans,someone who has never played Gothic and enjoys RPGs on his console.
    Plus they should "do" something about reviewers like that idiot at Eurogamer.
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  4. #4 Zitieren
    Deus Avatar von Maladiq
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    I think the best way to realize this would be to create incredible trailers, like the one for DA2, which left even me speechless.
    For the most recent Elex news, the new Piranha Bytes RPG, visit us at World of Elex!!!
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  5. #5 Zitieren
    Knight Commander
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    They trailers will cost but will certainly grab some attention.

    But I recall that the last time they created a trailer a whole fuss was created because they messed up the hero's face but the trailer was already released,so there are limitations.

    However I think those trailers would cost as much as the in-game voice overs,and I don't think it's worth it.
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  6. #6 Zitieren
    Knight Avatar von TheDoctor
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    I don't think an "awesome trailer" is the perfect answer. They need to make videos in general. Like a developers video-journal (which Piranha Bytes could make themselves on their spare time, like other developers). Staged interviews about the game, especially with the voice actors if they are as good now as they were in Risen.

    Gameplay videos, tech videos, trailers, interviews, teasers, just heave it all out there. Gametrailers.com accepts trailers for free. I myself e-mailed the first Risen-trailer there (in other words, it wasn't on my user or anything like that, GT hosted it themselves and it got on the front page) and within a few days the views-count had gone up to 20.000. That's good, free, easy, international advertisement right there.

    Anything goes, it doesn't have to include huge cuts on the budget. I sure hope Piranha Bytes ever reads this thread. So far, they have ignored my every inquiry for them to put more effort into advertising... As have DeepSilver.
    My Risen short stories
    Gnork & Blargina part: 1, 2, 3
    An unusual meeting (pdf)
    TheDoctor ist offline

  7. #7 Zitieren
    Deep Silver a. D. Avatar von doberlec
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    Zitat Zitat von Maladiq Beitrag anzeigen
    Voted§dito

    It would be really nice if doberlec will get over our past differences and visit our boards once again. Everybody here is a PB fan and wants the best for them and their games.
    Here I am, and I will also have a look into the english forums in future - count on that. As for the past differences, I only request that all of you try to empathize with us on a regular basis. It helps you to understand why we do things the way we do them and also that we have a limit on ressources to throw at projects like Risen (or Risen 2 at that matter). We cannot act like Activision/Blizzard because there are fewer people working for all Deep Silver products in the world than Activision/Blizzard have game masters in Paris for one game. BUT - we can listen more closely to our fans than they can in their grand schemes and there is where we can excell. This is why there will always be a place for companies like us but we heavily depend on YOU the customer to make a good judgement which is not only based on grahics.

    Zitat Zitat von Maladiq Beitrag anzeigen
    It would be great if someone from DS would chat with the community and come up with an advertising strategy.
    I can tell you what my central strategy for Risen will be and that is grassroot marketing. We are not going to be the ones who invest heavily in one trailer and then pray that it works because that is only a modern form of russian roulette. I know that people are not buying games from us because we are the ones who's trailers are furthest away from the actual gameplay. What I am going to promote is the game in terms of its unique character and what it offers to the RPG gamers with a different than average palate. We'll see how we will succeed on that and how that will also be recieved in the international markets. We all know that they are more open to the norm and shallow content than something with depth and character.
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    Deus Avatar von Maladiq
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    Good to have you back

    Well, grassroot marketing is nice, considering the already established fan base, but I believe you guys want to make it on a bigger level with risen 2. The fact is that both Risen and the Gothic series were generally well received by critics and almost every single person who tried the games liked it.

    So I would guess the problem is not that "americans are stupid" and so on, but the fact that these games did not receive the proper exposure. As the doctor said above, game trailers and other sites could mean free advertising. Also interviews.

    I also think a professional trailer is a pure win investment. Take this trailer for example. I am sure it costed a lot of money, but with a trailer like that around an important event like E3, gaming journalists from all over the world will be drawn to your game like honey bees. I hate DA1 and after seeing this I am sure I will play the sequel even if it is going to suck, so a cool trailer will work even on customer level.

    And a question, if I may ask: how well did Risen sell? Was it past the 500k figure?
    For the most recent Elex news, the new Piranha Bytes RPG, visit us at World of Elex!!!
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  9. #9 Zitieren
    Knight Avatar von RobinHood 13.
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    ^^(response to Doberlec) BRAVO

    I don't have any marketing experience to speak of, but I do like the mentality (atleast from a buyers standpoint), showing content that is more closely connected to the actual gameplay. Cinematic trailers can be quite awesome, but they do not show how the game will be. The games who deliver among the best of these trailers are also quite known from before. A lesser known game is therefore not guaranteed to get los of hits just because it's cinematic.

    However, you should have something cinematic/prerendered. especially intro and release trailer.
    Preferably you should have ingame trailer if you can make a really good one, as the cinematic trailers you can offer will most likely not beat the ones from bigger titles.

    As for "gameplay" movies. You had several showing ingame footage, but I do think you can make them better. The "biggest" one. Not bad, but not very good either. The text animation was well done, but clipping could be better. I believe you could have done a better job at showing the world.
    RobinHood 13. ist offline Geändert von RobinHood 13. (23.08.2010 um 21:17 Uhr)

  10. #10 Zitieren
    Deus Avatar von Maladiq
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    Well, advertising is like food. Gothic and Risen kinda looked bad, even though they tasted great. The solution is to make it look good. A cinematic is the way to do that. Because after you ate it, you won't care how it looks anymore, you will just like it.
    For the most recent Elex news, the new Piranha Bytes RPG, visit us at World of Elex!!!
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  11. #11 Zitieren
    Knight Commander
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    Zitat Zitat von Maladiq Beitrag anzeigen
    Well, advertising is like food. Gothic and Risen kinda looked bad, even though they tasted great. The solution is to make it look good. A cinematic is the way to do that. Because after you ate it, you won't care how it looks anymore, you will just like it.
    Spoiler:(zum lesen bitte Text markieren)
    Well then gamers are like flies who love shit


    I don't see how Doberlec's response(welcome back btw) has left much room for discussion.
    Kostaz ist offline Geändert von Kostaz (23.08.2010 um 21:32 Uhr)

  12. #12 Zitieren
    Deus Avatar von Maladiq
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    Zitat Zitat von Kostaz Beitrag anzeigen
    Spoiler:(zum lesen bitte Text markieren)
    Well then gamers are flies who love shit
    You are more cynical than the situation asks. Everybody loves epic stuff. Just because you show some incredible dialogue or feature very good voice acting, that doesn't mean you will sell. And let's be honest. Most of us bought Risen because of the Gothic series. Those trailers in which I was able to transform into a bug or levitate around didn't push any buttons.

    The GTA games, the NFS games, DA series, all of them bored the crap out of me. But I kept playing them and their sequels because as soon I stumbled upon any cinematic on the web, I felt the sudden urge to play that game again. And I am not the only one.

    The world we live in is based on advertising, so lower your self righteousness down and keep this kind of opinions to yourself.
    For the most recent Elex news, the new Piranha Bytes RPG, visit us at World of Elex!!!
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  13. #13 Zitieren
    Knight
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    People, be serious for a moment here. I, more then anything, would like to see R2 having DA2 like trailer, or even blizzard quality prerendered vid, but cmon, one vid like that maybe costs half the budget for entire game (risen), marketing included. Or even more maybe. It's not like you can say "ok, i will spend few more bucks for kickass vid". We are talking about insane numbers here, for such a 'small' title. So be reasonable. (atleast if you really want bioware/blizzard quality vids).

    I'd rether see them using half of that money into actual game isntead, if not more.

    --edited--
    This is a topic on cgtalk.com (which is a place where you can see Blur, blizzard and other top world artists), and it's about cost for a game trailer. I found this like particulary interesting:
    Just as a small experiment, if you take Pixar's Monsters Inc, it runs for 92mins, and cost roughly 115 million - thats 1.25 million a min.
    Zocky ist offline Geändert von Zocky (23.08.2010 um 21:47 Uhr)

  14. #14 Zitieren
    Warrior
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    Zitat Zitat von Maladiq Beitrag anzeigen
    I also think a professional trailer is a pure win investment.
    I strongly disagree. A professional trailer costs a little fortune and a lot of time (even if it is outsourced, because you must maintain creative control). And anything less spectacular than a Blizzard/Digic/Blur produced trailer would be only considered mediocre these days, I afraid, which only hurts your reputation. I wouldn't waste a penny for a prerendered trailer for marketing purposes, but that's just me.
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  15. #15 Zitieren
    Knight Commander
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    Zitat Zitat von Maladiq Beitrag anzeigen
    And let's be honest. Most of us bought Risen because of the Gothic series. Those trailers in which I was able to transform into a bug or levitate around didn't push any buttons.
    Not me,I keep a close eye to all cRPGs and I would have tried the demo even if it was developed by some unknown indian team.
    The world we live in is based on advertising, so lower your self righteousness down and keep this kind of opinions to yourself.
    I did put a spoiler to avoid any hurt feelings.
    Kostaz ist offline

  16. #16 Zitieren
    Knight Avatar von RobinHood 13.
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    Zitat Zitat von Maladiq Beitrag anzeigen
    I also think a professional trailer is a pure win investment. Take this trailer for example. I am sure it costed a lot of money, but with a trailer like that around an important event like E3, gaming journalists from all over the world will be drawn to your game like honey bees. I hate DA1 and after seeing this I am sure I will play the sequel even if it is going to suck, so a cool trailer will work even on customer level.
    I did not like it. The trailer seemed to just try to be "awesome" by introducing one more "epic" thing over the other. Story is important in their games, and if they show off elements that reminds me more of a bad action movie, then I'm skeptical about the story in the game.

    Both SW:ToR trailers were awesome though.

    Just some quick math Maladiq.
    Dragon age has sold atleast 3.2 million copies (since march).
    Let's assume Risen sold 500k copies.
    We don't take the DLC of DA into account here, and assume income per copies sold is equal.

    Making an equal quality trailer costs the same. A trailer is likely to have % related increase.
    Meaning, the more you expect a game to sell, releasing a trailer will provide a better profit, than it would for a lower lvl game.

    If these were sale numbers, and both featured a high quality trailer, then that would trailer would have been six times more expensive compared to income for Risen, which is alot.
    If the trailer raised sales by 5% for DA, then Risen would need over 30% increase from the trailer to achieve an equal profit from the trailer. I believe that is somewhat unrealistic, although exceptions may occur. If you make a trailer so good, that many of the larger gamesites decides to post an article about it, or provoking enough to have it shown on the news, then that might happen.
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    Deus Avatar von Maladiq
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    Zitat Zitat von Kostaz Beitrag anzeigen
    Not me,I keep a close eye to all cRPGs and I would have tried the demo even if it was developed by some unknown indian team.
    Sure, you do that, but most people don't. Which is a big problem for any developer.

    Zitat Zitat von RobinHood 13. Beitrag anzeigen
    ...
    1. Yeah, the trailer was too epic, but still it has it's sheer part of awesomeness.

    2. Having such a trailer would surely increase sales. Engine rendered trailers would afterward be much well received.

    3. You don't have to have a 2 minute long trailer. Half that length would suffice. Risen had a pretty nice cinematic trailer, but it missed the epic element.
    For the most recent Elex news, the new Piranha Bytes RPG, visit us at World of Elex!!!
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  18. #18 Zitieren
    Knight
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    dude, you think they can pull trailer like that out of their asses or something? Trailer like that, especially for small game like R2, must not only increase the sale in order to cover up it cost, but it should increase in incredibly.
    Just fore example.

    Lets say there are 50 members in PB. each has, lets say, 2000$ wage per month.

    One of the bioware trailers,i heard, cost 850.000$.

    that would mean, that instead of this trailer, PB could use almost 9 more months of development instead. Which is probably like 1/3 of the time R2 will have alltogether.

    So, you are putting like 20, 30% of the budget for the whole damn game just on ONE trailer. It's extremly risky to put so much money into one trailer. Because it would have to also increase sales not just a bit, but really, really a lot. And no matter what you guys say, i have seen several games who had good trailer and still sold poorly.

    Just think a bit about it, don't just go screaming OmG you should have DAO like trailer, because that will increase sales. It really isn't THAT simple. Belive me, these guys like doberlec knows a lot more about these things then all of us combined. We are just fans, but it is them who runs the buisseness afterall.
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  19. #19 Zitieren
    Deus Avatar von Maladiq
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    Zitat Zitat von Zocky Beitrag anzeigen
    cost 850.000$.
    And they said one of the GTAs had a 350 million budget. These figures are not to be believed. A 2 minute trailer can't possibly cost 850k simply because a 2 hour District 9, with the most realistic CG to date, costed only 30 million.

    Ok, let's abandon the idea of a professional trailer. Why not an engine rendered one? This looks awesome, feels awesome and I am sure the costs were next to nothing. All that is needed is a little more artistic direction.
    For the most recent Elex news, the new Piranha Bytes RPG, visit us at World of Elex!!!
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  20. #20 Zitieren
    Knight
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    Belive me, if you want to hire Blur Studios or such, will quicky get you there.

    And even then, 350k is a hell of a lot of money. It's still probably 3-4 months of development, and that is only one trailer, not the whole marketing.

    And you do want Blur, Digic or such to make your vid, otherwise, what is the point in have so expensive trailer, if it's not up to par with DAo and such?

    Game engine trailer? Dunno about that. Cost might not be that high, but next to nothing is still probably very, very optimistic statement. in any case, it's not even in the same neighbourhood as the cgi trailers.
    ofcourse i myself wouldn't mind that at all....but you know how demanding gamers are these days....If it's not top Blur animation, it's crap. :P

    Not that i will ever understand the fuss for the cgi trailers. Ok, i admire and love Blizzard cinematics, but because of them themselfs, but in the end, it does not tell me anything about the gameplay in game itself really. So wht's the use? Rether give me a really good gameplay trailer isntead.

    For example, i was very impressed with Bullet storm trailer; it was gameplay trailer, but it was awesome.
    Zocky ist offline

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