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Maladiq
26.04.2009, 02:20
As for the pirates, I'm in a situation similar to a greek tragedy. Going with online activation is the only secure move right now but it will also upset the loyal customers. If we go the other direction we will get praise from the fans, but we're easy bait for the pirates and most of the kids out there don't give a flying f&%$ if they are destroying a business or not. What do they care if everything goes down the tubes when they can boast to their peers in school, right?

Looks like the guys from DS want to go with DRM. I have made this petition against that here:

http://www.petitiononline.com/risendrm/petition.html

Please sign it if you are against the use of DRM for Risen.

I add the folowing links to show you why drm is bad and not worth it:


More about DRM here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management
Myths about DRM, why it is bad: http://geocities.com/foobar_77/drm-myths.html
Some thoughts about copy protection: http://geocities.com/foobar_77/thoughts-on-cp.html

Thanks foobar:D

Anyways, guys, spread the news, and please vote it. It is a protest not only against drm for risen, but also against drm in general. And Risen being special for us, it counts more, so don;t let it be ruined by this kind of things.

doberlec
26.04.2009, 02:39
Anyways, guys, spread the news, and please vote it. It is a protest not only against drm for risen, but also against drm in general. And Risen being special for us, it counts more, so don;t let it be ruined by this kind of things.

I'm sorry but you shouldn't lead people into the thought that Risen will have DRM because the topic isn't even settled. Unless of course you're not really interested in a good discussion and just up for some publicity stunt and after asking for some attention.

Zocky
26.04.2009, 02:45
yeah i do too think it's a bit early for something like that. instead of panicing, lets rether have a discussion about it? I mean, i already said, if there will be limitation in using the game meaning that there is possibility that i won't be able to play game that i payed for for some period of time, i ain't buying it. But nothing is for sure right now, so lets try to have argumented discussion instead.

Especially as publishers don't really like to openly debate about these things with fans.

doberlec
26.04.2009, 02:54
Especially as publishers don't really like to openly debate about these things with fans.

Actually I do prefer an open debate about that, this is why I have started the discussion with that to begin with. But once you reach into the realms of petitions it's even hard to know if the people signing there even know what Risen is.

Maladiq
26.04.2009, 03:08
Actually I do prefer an open debate about that, this is why I have started the discussion with that to begin with. But once you reach into the realms of petitions it's even hard to know if the people signing there even know what Risen is.

Who would sign smth just for the sake of it? I would consider this petition as a poll, to see how much people in general are caring about something like this. As I said in the first post, you are considering it, I know it hasn;t been settled. Well, if you would take the decission to use this method, then trying to do something would be too late, wouldn't it? This way we can see how the potential buyers are feeling about this method and you can base your later decission on the results. Fair enough?

doberlec
26.04.2009, 03:17
Since when is a petition against something a start for a good discussion? You haven't explained them anything, you're just asking for their opinion although they have no clue how such a protection would work. Should I start a petition which says: "Do you want that Piranha Bytes does another game after Risen?" That would be the same idiotic move, eh?

Actually the reaction of you guys is telling me more about the discussion than the discussion itself. And that drives me to my conclusion that there is no way to talk with you in a meaningfull way because everytime there only a hint that someone in the universe is thinking about something is setting of an alarm bell in your head.

Larisa
26.04.2009, 03:21
And that drives me to my conclusion that there is no way to talk with you in a meaningfull way

Imho, you take it too hard. It's to be expected to find radical behavior in game related forums, don't you think?

Maladiq
26.04.2009, 03:23
Since when is a petition against something a start for a good discussion? You haven't explained them anything, you're just asking for their opinion although they have no clue how such a protection would work. Should I start a petition which says: "Do you want that Piranha Bytes does another game after Risen?" That would be the same idiotic move, eh?

Actually the reaction of you guys is telling me more about the discussion than the discussion itself. And that drives me to my conclusion that there is no way to talk with you in a meaningfull way because everytime there only a hint that someone in the universe is thinking about something is setting of an alarm bell in your head.

Dober, you disapoint me:(

Zocky
26.04.2009, 03:24
well i do think all of you, doberlec included, are overreacting.

Doberlec, this kind of limitation in games usually has reactions like this. I do agree we should talk more about it (with arguments), but you must understand also us, fans, that this is one system we all hate enough to not buy game if necesary. We can talk about it, but to be honest, i'm not sure if there's much to be talked about. It's clear you would really like to have this limitation thingy, while it's also sure we all hate that thing, and i don't think there is middle ground here. Risen either will have limitation system, or not. So if we proceed, it's gonna be either us trying to convince you how bad this is, or you trying to convince us how good it is, but both cases will fail, as we all stand strongly with our beliefs on this subject.

doberlec
26.04.2009, 03:29
Imho, you take it too hard. It's to be expected to find radical behavior in game related forums, don't you think?

No but I'm after a solution to a big problem. And we are not going to get to a solution by thinking black or white. I'm feeling reminded of the sentence "Are you with us or against us" which coined the Bush aera in the US (which brought us all into deep shit the last years) and the outcome is that everyone is NOT in the least interested to budge one millimeter from his or her position. Not even when the stakes are high and the aim is important.

Now let me define our aim: I need to find a way that our game doesn't get pirated on day 1 and on the first weeks. Is DRM doing the trick? Maybe, but only if it is accepted by the buyers and that in my opinion depends on some variables. Because there is a service called Steam which is in fact selling games and is very successfull. So there is a way to acceptance.

vivaxardas
26.04.2009, 03:30
But once you reach into the realms of petitions it's even hard to know if the people signing there even know what Risen is.

So cynical, but so true... :p
Petitions may serve as a bad publicity for a game. I do not know guys how for you, but for me these petitions on fan sites indicate that it is likely that there is something wrong with the game, and that I should steer clear from it. I want Risen to succeed, and I would not want to scare off some casual gamers.
Also why not to leave it in the hands of the publisher? If the publisher makes a bad choice, he looses much more then we do. It is a publisher who is more concerned with making a right choice. So let him decide what to do. The publisher has enough professinals to do it, while our perspective may be kinda limited.

Maladiq
26.04.2009, 03:35
Because there is a service called Steam which is in fact selling games and is very successfull.

Have you paid attention lately to steam? It has begun to have a lot of critics since the prices are as high as the ones of distributed via stores games, or even higher. We all hoped that Steam would bring the era of the 3rd or 4th party to an end (that meaning publishers or retailers) to an end, thus sttudios having more freedom, the distribution could take place easier and the prices would go down. But if you (and i reffer to you as the representant of DS) take the example of that huge rip-off called Steam, that sais a lot.

doberlec
26.04.2009, 03:35
Dober, you disapoint me:(

You're not realizing that you're driving me out of this forum with such actions do you?


It's clear you would really like to have this limitation thingy, while it's also sure we all hate that thing, and i don't think there is middle ground here.

No. You are not thinking out of the box, because I asked in the other thread how many activations would suffice. If you tell me that its not working this way, we will find another way. THink of it as a white paper, and the rules are not written.


The publisher has enough professinals to do it, while our perspective may be kinda limited.

True but we only see our perspective.

EDIT: Will carry on the discussion in the original thread...

Larisa
26.04.2009, 03:40
I do not know guys how for you, but for me these petitions on fan sites indicate that it is likely that there is something wrong with the game, and that I should steer clear from it.

For me also a petition sounds negative. It's usually when people demand something from a higher authority and they are not listened.

RobinHood 13.
26.04.2009, 12:00
Empire total war has some seriously annoying protection systems, and at those times I don't have internet it will be those games I would play, but apparently that's not possible.
Same applies for risen.
Empire total war took also loooong time to install because of all the actication bullshit, and if I can compare it with anything, it would have to be installing sims 2 with all it's expansions. A real time consuming process. I don't want to do alot of work just to be able to install a game.
The promise of the protection might be removed in a patch is not good enough at all. The install limitation thingy would seriously harm my possibilites of buying the game, and my opinion of deepsilver as a name.
Please keep to the regular insert cd protection (only make it work this time, unlike G2 which had some problems on especially newer computers). Many people care about what they put on their machine, and games that include programs that use surveilance to check if we use a legal version is kinda like hacking.
Protection systems may harm sales, SPORE. While others say they increase sales. For Empire Total War I dont know, but I bought the game, a bit much to pay for a new game nowadays, but I had tried it and it was very good. My overall experience fell drastically when I tried to install it, and I got to know that theyve put quite some annoying protection systems. They managed to lure the money out of me, but what happens when they create a new game. I will definitely check out what kinda protection systems they use then, and hear what others say about it first.

Here's an honest opinion of will I buy the game or not.
Most likely I will buy the game (even with an annoying protection system), but that's because it's PB and the game seems to correct the errors from G3.
With protection systems I might still buy the game, but deepsilver will go from a (+) to a (-) in my book and also harm future releases. I will also most likely wait to hear others opinions of it though, and maybe even wait til price has dropped.
If I hear bad reviews, buggy or another G3 failure I will also wait to check out if they'll fix it.

Other advices.
Release a good demo before release that gives the gamer a taste of what the game is like. Many use illegal downloads as a demo trial, only problem is their then less likely to buy the game.
Have something materialistic which you don't get by downloading and put this in regular version (not only collectors edition). That won't cost you very much but give gamers a reason to buy the game. The internet download version should then be cheaper than the buy in games store version.

I hope if Deepsilver have any plans of a protection systems, they'll redecide and stick to the old, insert correct cd.

doberlec
26.04.2009, 13:59
Other advices.
Release a good demo before release that gives the gamer a taste of what the game is like. Many use illegal downloads as a demo trial, only problem is their then less likely to buy the game.
Have something materialistic which you don't get by downloading and put this in regular version (not only collectors edition). That won't cost you very much but give gamers a reason to buy the game. The internet download version should then be cheaper than the buy in games store version.


These things are planned :)


I hope if Deepsilver have any plans of a protection systems, they'll redecide and stick to the old, insert correct cd.

No need to redecide when no final decision is taken. But it seems that the petition thread already made its way into the brains of the people - funny how fast manipulation works.

Pericle
26.04.2009, 15:21
I say it was a great idea to start a petition, so that PB and the publisher will know the consequences of choosing to use DRM for Risen.

Before you actually make up your mind, you will have this to think about.

I have only one thing to say, if the game is good, it will sell, if not, don't blame the pirates that is just silly, even pirates buy games that they love... keep that in mind. ;)

Puppyonastik
26.04.2009, 17:25
Hello all. žwink

Thank you Doberlec for participating in this discussion. It's good to see a publisher engaging in dialog with the customer base. Such is a virtue I see very rarely out side of the independent sphere, and I think as a practice that if continued, will only strengthen your company as time goes on. This helps me as a customer respect Deep Silver and will ensure that when I see your logo on more products I will remember that you have communicated positively with the community and take into account our opinions. I am pleased to see these business practices and I hope you continue. :D

Please do not make the mistake of being "driven out" of a discussion such as this. The fans here do not mean any harm to you personally or to your company. For many customers this is a very sensitive subject so it is inevitable that there will be emotions abound. To shut the door and walk away from talking over the issue because some people may get defensive/argumentative/hostile, only makes people loose respect for your company, which does not equal increased sales. Staying involved until a solution that makes everyone happy is obtained will impress people, and impressed people means more sales. :p

Anyways, on to my points:

In my opinion DRM is counter productive, you can slap as much of it on a product as you like and there will always be a way to circumvent it. Leaving the pirate untouched because the DRM is removed, while the legitimate customer gets to bear the burden. Taking Steam for instance, it didn't save Empire: Total war from having a day one pirate copy out on torrents, which in turn made it easier for the user to play without needing Steam running in the background (which for one reason or another there seems to be many individuals out there who cannot stand a middleman of any sort).

In this day and age, peer-to-peer distribution is a fact of life, and as time goes on more and more of the population will share more and more information. Heck, you have Ray Kurzwiel out there talking about how in a decade or two people will be emailing each other their favorite toaster/computer/car designs, from which people will have their nanobots build for them (Could you envision the uproar from customers if their new legitimate BMW wouldn't let them drive to work one day because it incorrectly identified itself as a pirate version? Or what if they just randomly shut off while in use? :eek: What if after every 3-5 oil changes/tune-ups/hardware modifications, the car would cease to run, and you would have to call both BMW and the Auto Rights Management company to reset it for you. What if in the illegitimate BMW you didn't have to worry about if it was going to run when you want it to?). If there's something out there that's popular it will be shared, just like how people pass out reefers these days. Therefor the only absolute way to not have your product pirated is to not make it at all, however you can't pay the bills that way.

Something I find amusing is that "no DRM" is now used to market games. Independent companies are taking pieces (and sometimes chucks) of the market, selling games with no more protection than a serial key. Look at Stardock pulling in a 10+ to 1 profit on some of it's unprotected titles and their games are pirated just as much as every other popular series is. Apparently not releasing the product until it's complete, fully supporting your products with patches until all bugs are squashed, releasing plenty of free add-ons in between expansions or sequels, deep interaction with the community, and supporting modding efforts seems to catch peoples respect and makes them want to support the company. Who would have thought? It wouldn't be very hard to show other examples of this trend working.

In conclusion, I think the best direction for Deep Silver to go, if it decides to combat "profit loss" due to the piracy of Risen, would be to give those pirates honest reasons to purchase the product than focusing on proven futile attempts to punish them or lock them out of the game. Just because they've pirated the game does not mean they are not still a potential customer. For Instance, lets say a torrent springs up on thepiratebay, Deep Silver could make a comment "Hey guys, I'm so and so from Deep Silver, Publisher of Risen. We hope you appreciate all the hard work PB has done! If you enjoy Risen, we would be grateful if you purchased a copy here at *online retailer* to help us develop more games like this for you. Also, if you have any questions or comments please do not hesitate to join our forum here at *Official Risen forum*! Looking forward to hear from you! Thanks alot, so and so!". Not only would that impress those who read it, the act alone could generate word of mouth advertisements. "Holy Sh*t, that publisher actually seems human! ...And all this time I thought all publishers were just money hoarding spawns of hell that treated customers like cattle! I think it won't kill me to support their title then!" etc. I'm sure there are tons of ways Deep Silver can reach across the aisle like this that would truly benefit everyone and develop some admiration for the company as well.

Thank you, I hope this helps.

Demonium
26.04.2009, 17:31
I can say that its annoying when you need an Internet connection to do the activation for example...What people with ought any Internet connection should do?

The main target for the publisher is that the copy protection will hold for a week until it will be cracked. Because its 100% sure that it will be cracked one day or another.

To say the truth even if i have a game original, i will use a crack to play it with ought a DVD.

The reasons: Annoying...every time you need to play you have to insert it into the DVD rom.
And most important. Scratches...I have the impression that the DVDs are of very poor quality. I am VERY careful, i never drop them on the floor or on sharp surfaces and into a month they are full of scratches. I almost destroyed my Rome Total War CD...I uninstalled it and i couldnt install it later because it was full of scratches...

Ever thought to sell the games into a USB flash drive instead of DVDs? :D

Bamfy
26.04.2009, 17:32
As long as there won't be any instalation limit(Spore) or won't be able to play it because of DRM(Clear Sky),I don't have nothing against.

In this case,most people know Risen from internet,not from tv or radio so if there will be an internet check(or how you guys call it),I don't see what's the problem.I wouldn't care if I lose 5 minutes to be able to play Risen,I wouldn't care.

Although I do hope you don't use Starforce or Tages,since they have a bad reputation with adding some bugs,even problems with installing the game even if you have the original cd.

In any case,Deep Silver is the only one who decides what they will do,so don't really see the point of the petition.
Oh,and I won't be dissapointed if DS will use DRM (Tages).After all,they have a life too.

foobar
26.04.2009, 17:40
@all: I do not want to read that you use a crack in this forum. Remember the terms of use and stick with them. Usage of cracks is a no-go here.

Postings which contain such statements are in risk of being deleted. The author might get an infraction, too.

foobar
26.04.2009, 20:49
By a user's request, I have added a poll to this thread in which you can select what CP methods are okay with you.

Note that whatever the result may be, it has probably no influence whatsoever on Deep Silver's decision about CP. It's just meant to give an impression about what copy protections are more likely to be accepted than others.

Demonium
26.04.2009, 21:36
Anyways...I dont care about the copyprotection. I will buy the game even if it takes 1 day to install, or if it takes 5 hours to activate online...

The only thing i will be against is some bugs due to the protection program, damaging some hardware, or limited installations of the game.

And the last one is ridiculous. Perhaps i have unistalled Risen and i want to install it again later once i will have some free space on my hard drive. Or perhaps i want to rent it from a shop and test it before buying. And thats totally legal here in Greece.

mihail
27.04.2009, 09:27
Maybe someone can explain what is the problem with DRM , what disatvantage dose it have ...

foobar
27.04.2009, 09:46
Maybe someone can explain what is the problem with DRM , what disatvantage dose it have ...

Basically, it means that you buy a game but the publisher still owns it. He has the control over how and when you can play it. See my sig for details.

Zocky
27.04.2009, 10:09
mihail, problem is, that if for some reason publisher decides that you cannot play game, you won't.

Also, in some version, you have limited number of installs, like 3, after that, you must bag EA (or anyone else) for mersy so that they can allow maybe one more activation.

So if you reintall game, that is 1 activation. If you change some HW, that's another one. If you install it on your brother's computer, that's it. And if EA don't release patch later, you are pretty much SURE you will NOT be able to play game later at all.
So you are pretty much locked to your computer, if you have 2 comps, you are pretty much fuc*ed up.

THAT is the problem with DRM.

Although from what i can tell, Doberlec did try to make a bit more user-friendly DRM version, but it's still doing a lot of problems for customers, but probably almost none for pirates, as they always crack all security measures.So as i said, some customers will feel punished for buying game instead of just getting it for 'free'. That is why i think this system isn't good for anyone; not the publisher and defenetly not for us users.

I'd still prefer something that work rether like the old CD-protection. True, it limits you to this particular CD/DVD, but you can use it as you want and aren't as limited as DRM.

But i do understand that system isn't exactly perfect. I just hope they can think of system that doesn't make you feel punished for buying game.

I still think that best system would be in combination with content. If you can download new things for the game from some server, maybe some small addons or similar, i think that might be enough to convince some pirates to rether just buy game. I think it's worthy to atleast think about it. AS foobar said, don't try to just punish pirates, but rether try to offer something to the actually customers that pirates can't get (instead of punishing them). If they can only download it from server only from within game, i think it can be controlled a lot more. True, pirate may not want addon, if he likes game, he will want addon too. And hopefully enough to actually buy game.

As people say, don't use just stick on the horse, use the carrot aswell. ;)

Maladiq
27.04.2009, 15:01
As people say, don't use just stick on the horse, use the carrot aswell. ;)

Beautiful.:)

That's the whole point: you need to give bonuses (and i don't mean expenisive collector's editions) to the people who buy the game. As it was said, there are countries in which you can test the game before buying it. And that is what most pirates do, they test a game. If it is good enough they will become fans. If they have a conscience, they will buy the the game. If not, the bonuses that come with the game will convince them.

RobinHood 13.
27.04.2009, 17:06
This game isn't meant to add bonus content later on like they do with empire total war.
The design of the game makes it very hard, unless it's needed, but probably better to save it for a big addon. Of course they'll probably add some patches, but if there's any interest in the game, which it should be if they're aiming for high sales.
Cracks to patches will be released same day as patch is released. It's only when popularity is low, it's hard to find cracks for newest patches, and probably it's not hard to get hands on an image/crack which works anyway.
If blacklisting of dameon tools and similar programs is possible without DRM, or other customer unpleasing software I would recommend that.

Usually better protected versions are harder for downloader to make work on their computer. Those who crack it can do it very simple, but usually you have to do much yourself, cause that's lesser work for the cracker. The question isn't if they will break the copy/protection, but how many of the users that understand the crackers instructions on how to get the game running on their computer. If to complicated several will give up, and may decide to buy the game instead.
That is a +, but you must also take into consideration how much this copy/protection can affect sales, due to potential buyers being against it. Some might have downloaded it and will maybe buy it, but redecided because of the copy/protection, and it may harm how likely you are to get new buyers on new products.
Price have also very much to say. I've seen console games, and their prices are way to high (70EUR), and they barely drop in price over time. Some PC games are also very high(60EUR), like Spore. Empire Total War had a (45EUR) price which is acceptable for a new game. G3 had same, although I would buy much more games if prices on new games in stores were about (35EUR). That's a more reasonable price, and people would buy more games. The question although is how much more?
See most new real games on steam cost 50EUR, that's to expensive.

Alea
27.04.2009, 18:13
i don't know how the things will be, the only thing i know is that even if i actually buy the games i play, i usually use a crack on them; cause i don't want to be annoyed by those stupid and invasive protections.

for what i know, it doesn't exist (and will never be) a software protection that cannot be cracked; even an hardware protection can always be cracked (it's only a lot more expensive)

So IMO, since (for what i've seen) a crack can ALWAYS be found at worst a week after the game is on sale (even before sometimes, which is kind of a clue :p); i would rather prefer a game less expensive (since who's not going to buy it, will never actually buy it whatever the protection could be):D

This is my opinion and i'm sorry if it hurts someone;)žwink

Maladiq
27.04.2009, 20:06
I wonder what the talk about in the german petition thread, can someone tell us? There are already 13 discussion pages.

─quinoktium
28.04.2009, 03:56
Maybe someone can explain what is the problem with DRM , what disatvantage dose it have ...Downloading a game for free is a better option than buying a game with any DRM on it.

Bastardo
28.04.2009, 09:13
It's basically a better option even without DRM.

foobar
28.04.2009, 09:15
It's basically a better option even without DRM.

Only from a short-term perspective.

Alea
28.04.2009, 09:48
actually piracy isn't a bad thing in itself, personally through piracy i found games that i would have never bougth (even because many of them were very difficult to find in the very few stores near to me), i saw them, liked them, and i bought them

[i would have never known about gothic without a pirate copy given to me by my cousin (actually he had the original version, but since we live in 2 different houses i think a publisher would say it was piracy:p), and now i'm here waiting to buy every next episode]
(to prevent someone, it doesn't exist a game that i played fully thanks to piracy that i haven't bought, i even bought quite a few games that i couldn't even go through a day:p)

The problem is not piracy, the problem is bad people, which remains bad even with a copy protection:D. I'm sorry for the developers, but the mistake is to consider the pirated copies as available customers (without piracy there would be less pirated copies, not more available customers) (IMO)žwink

Tratos
28.04.2009, 11:19
I voted for No protection. No need for the "activation" to "check" me, I will buy the game.

Best copy-protection eva - Galactic Civilization - no protection - but all the stuff and patches can be accessed only if you have a valid serial.

Maladiq
28.04.2009, 15:37
I voted for No protection. No need for the "activation" to "check" me, I will buy the game.

Best copy-protection eva - Galactic Civilization - no protection - but all the stuff and patches can be accessed only if you have a valid serial.

That rulez:D

I have a proposition for a poll: Have you ever bought a game because you played a pirate copy in the first place?

Yes

No

I bought only when I couldn't find a good torrent."

What do you think, buying a magazine that gives Gothic for "free" on it's dvd, for let's say 4.50 euros, is that considered buying an original copy?

EDIT2: come on guys, what are the conclusions from the german side? are they also so firmly against DRM, also the dialogue with the publisher and pb has always been at a larger scale....

mihail
28.04.2009, 15:58
Thank you for the expl. foobar! My opinion is that nomatter what tipe of protection will they use there will alwais be someone to brakeit so ......

─quinoktium
28.04.2009, 21:53
It's basically a better option even without DRM.Not if you want to support the company. The problem here is that many people like to buy games simply for that reason, but DRM makes it pretty pointless. Some people buy to have less hassle with the game, but DRM makes that pointless, as well. Therefore, downloading the game (and some may even donate to the company) seems more feasible.

Kostaz
28.04.2009, 22:28
Not if you want to support the company. The problem here is that many people like to buy games simply for that reason, but DRM makes it pretty pointless. Some people buy to have less hassle with the game, but DRM makes that pointless, as well. Therefore, downloading the game (and some may even donate to the company) seems more feasible.

Buy the Xbox360 version.

Bastardo
28.04.2009, 22:40
What are you talking about? If you want to support the company the best option is to buy the game - whatever the copy protection might be - and then if it bugs you, you know what to do.

Kostaz
28.04.2009, 23:17
What are you talking about? If you want to support the company the best option is to buy the game - whatever the copy protection might be - and then if it bugs you, you know what to do.No matter how much I'd like to support the developer I won't be @$$f*cked for a company.
So why buy the PC version which might have that rediculous DRM and not the Xbox360 version which will have xbox360 standard DRM,unless Deep Silver decide to allow Risen on only 3 xbox'es.

Seriously I'd rather buy an Xbox just for Risen than pay for a PC version with DRM.

foobar
28.04.2009, 23:25
Seriously I'd rather buy an Xbox just for Risen than pay for a PC version with DRM.

Ever suspected that this may be another reason behind DRM? Drive customers away from the PC platform?

Bastardo
28.04.2009, 23:31
No matter how much I'd like to support the developer I won't be @$$f*cked for a company.Heh, I could hardly call a max. 4 hardware changes a month (with extension available) system an assfuck. You could argue the morals behind it but at the end of the road it's not a big deal. Not more than any other check.

What I don't get it is... what does it matter if I change hardware?
I don't think the avalanches of copy protection methods are focusing on the right problem.

Demonium
28.04.2009, 23:44
What I don't get it is... what does it matter if I change hardware?
I don't think the avalanches of copy protection methods are focusing on the right problem.

Totally stupid indeed...The publisher could check your IP address before you make the installation or before you get the serial...If they will see that the installation is made at the same PC address, then there shouldnt be any problem...

But like foobar said, i also believe that with those annoying copy protections, they are trying to make the fans to buy an Xbox version of the game instead.

foobar
28.04.2009, 23:52
The publisher could check your IP address before you make the installation or before you get the serial...If they will see that the installation is made at the same PC address, then there shouldnt be any problem...

Erm... what does an IP address have to do with the identification of a PC? Or is my irony detector broken?

─quinoktium
28.04.2009, 23:56
What are you talking about? If you want to support the company the best option is to buy the game - whatever the copy protection might be - and then if it bugs you, you know what to do.Can you explain to me how that's the BEST option? Does that money actually go to the developer? And does every single developer deserve strictly <insert standard game price in your country> for their game? :rolleyes: What if I think Gothic I was worth $300 and I want to support the devs with that amount... the devs, not EA, JoWood, or whoever.

Demonium
28.04.2009, 23:57
Erm... what does an IP address have to do with the identification of a PC? Or is my irony detector broken?

As far as i know someone can find your location at least from your Internet connection...something like the IP address...I just dont know exactly how this works...:p

─quinoktium
29.04.2009, 00:02
You may want to know that IP addresses tend to be highly unstable and change for various reasons. IP addresses can also be hidden by proxies.

foobar
29.04.2009, 00:03
Does that money actually go to the developer?

Usually no. As I understand it, the default is that the publisher pays the developer in advance. Anything he earn with the game is his revenue. In a way this is fair because the publisher carries the risk. The developers gets paid before anyone can know whether the game will sell good. The greater the risk, the greater the revenue when it turns out good. There may be a smaller profit sharing with the developer in the contract but that is only an option.

Just generally speaking, of course. I don't know the details of the contract between DS and PB. And I doubt either of them will publish it.


As far as i know someone can find your location at least from your Internet connection...something like the IP address...I just dont know exactly how this works...:p

Most ISPs use dynamic IP addresses for the private customers. That means the IP address I currently have can be the one someone else will have tomorrow. Usually, those IP pools are somewhat local so you can guess which country one lives in or maybe what the next greater city is. But that's about it. And then there are proxies and NAT routers and stuff like that.

Bastardo
29.04.2009, 00:05
Can you explain to me how that's the BEST option? Does that money actually go to the developer? And does every single developer deserve strictly <insert standard game price in your country> for their game? :rolleyes: What if I think Gothic I was worth $300 and I want to support the devs with that amount... the devs, not EA, JoWood, or whoever.I suppose sending money is the best option ever for you, but that's not how PB decided to handle their game. So the alternative is no support at all or disrespect their way and make your own self-made contract in your mind for the game.

Damn, Hellbilly knew how to say this the right way.

Kostaz
29.04.2009, 00:06
Heh, I could hardly call a max. 4 hardware changes a month (with extension available) system an assfuck. You could argue the morals behind it but at the end of the road it's not a big deal. Not more than any other check.

What I don't get it is... what does it matter if I change hardware?
I don't think the avalanches of copy protection methods are focusing on the right problem.Then I guess we don't agree on what an @$$f*ck is, for example Spore seemed to me like some pretty heavy anal action.

As I've said it's a matter of principle spending 200+ euros instead of 30 isn't wise but supporting this kind of DRM isn't wise either.

My last console is one of the 1st Playstation 1(you know the ugly and fat version).So I'll use the Xbox only for a handful of games as console gaming isn't really for me.

Bastardo
29.04.2009, 00:11
As long as my copy doesn't become useless over time, a check is a check. Are the manual questions in old games an assfuck? To me, yeah, at least more than the proposed protection for Risen. Because *that* is an hassle.

I'm only curious about the REAL reason behind that kind of "protection". ;)

Demonium
29.04.2009, 00:11
You may want to know that IP addresses tend to be highly unstable and change for various reasons. IP addresses can also be hidden by proxies.

Nope i didnt meant that address (the one that Rapidshare can locate)...The one you are referring to, can simply change if you will reopen your router or modem...

I knew that there is another address. A stable one.
To make it simple.
If i will get banned for example in some forum, no matter if i will close and open my router/modem again, or register again with a different name and e-mail, the admin will find my address and kick me again...

─quinoktium
29.04.2009, 00:23
but that's not how PB decided to handle their game.You're saying as if PB has a choice.


disrespect their wayWhat way? Where is it written?
I knew that there is another address. A stable one.
To make it simple.
If i will get banned for example in some forum, no matter if i will close and open my router/modem again, or register again with a different name and e-mail, the admin will find my address and kick me again...I have no idea what you may possibly be talking about. Mac address is the only thing I can think of, but I've never heard of forums checking those.

Larisa
29.04.2009, 00:29
I knew that there is another address. A stable one.
To make it simple.
If i will get banned for example in some forum, no matter if i will close and open my router/modem again

As in a MAC address? And most of the times that can be changed also.


or register again with a different name and e-mail, the admin will find my address and kick me again...

They usually use voodoo dolls for that, although sometimes tarot works too.


Even if you have a different IP every time, usually only the last 8 bits change. If you have a domain assigned, your address from the same ISP usually will have the same name, like dynamicpart.staticpart.domain.tld

Only the dynamic part changes most of the times.

foobar
29.04.2009, 00:31
As long as my copy doesn't become useless over time, a check is a check. Are the manual questions in old games an assfuck?

First of all: Could we please refrain from using crude language? We have kids in our forum, too.

Besides that there's a difference. Via DRM, the publisher is the one who authorizes the usage of the game. Not at the time of purchase, but repeatedly each time you ask for permission. Based on his current motives, technical and economical abilities.

With the handbook question, an algorithm on your very own PC (meaning it cannot be altered without your consent) verifies the permission. Algorithms are mathematical. Defined input results in defined output. Enter the correct answer and you can play. Always. No one can stop you from doing so.


As in a MAC address? And most of the times that can be changed also.

They wouldn't be much of a help anyway. The ethernet frames are discarded at the end of the ethernet segment. MAC addresses are usually not visible on Layer 3 and above.


Even if you have a different IP every time, usually only the last 8 bits change.

The times of classful internet routing are long gone. Only old and big ISP still have those large, continuous address spaces.


If you have a domain assigned, your address from the same ISP usually will have the same name, like dynamicpart.staticpart.domain.tld

Only the dynamic part changes most of the times.

Whereas many ISPs somehow simply encode the IP address into the hostname part of the FQDN. The Deutsche Telekom for example uses a sceme like this: pXXXXXXXX.dip.t-dialin.net, with XXXXXXXX being the IP address in its hexadecimal representation.

Bastardo
29.04.2009, 01:09
You're saying as if PB has a choice.Are you saying Deep Silver pulled out a gun? :rolleyes:

What way? Where is it written?I have no idea what you may possibly be talking about.Handling the game via Deep Silver was PB's decision, one way or another. Why should you decide what's the best way of payment for them even if your way pays better? PB has its own deal with DS and that's their own business.
First of all: Could we please refrain from using crude language? We have kids in our forum, too.I don't think the kids mind but right, sorry.

Besides that there's a difference. Via DRM, the publisher is the one who authorizes the usage of the game. Not at the time of purchase, but repeatedly each time you ask for permission. Based on his current motives, technical and economical abilities.

With the handbook question, an algorithm on your very own PC (meaning it cannot be altered without your consent) verifies the permission. Algorithms are mathematical. Defined input results in defined output. Enter the correct answer and you can play. Always. No one can stop you from doing so.I think I missed something, because from what I know, non butt-loving DRMs are algorithms themselves, and a publisher can't alter what's on your DVD with superpowers... what is it that I don't know?

foobar
29.04.2009, 01:16
I think I missed something, because from what I know, non butt-loving DRMs are algorithms themselves, and a publisher can't alter what's on your DVD with superpowers... what is it that I don't know?

The algorithm on the DVD is simple:

ask DRM server
if ok, continue
else exit


The real decision making happens on the DRM server which is under control of the publisher.

Bastardo
29.04.2009, 01:19
Wouldn't it be illegal to refute a proper copy? You could get your dough back or see the company in court in a decent country.

foobar
29.04.2009, 01:38
Wouldn't it be illegal to refute a proper copy? You could get your dough back or see the company in court in a decent country.

Big question. If the publisher has technical problems, can he be held responsible for that? On what basis? What availability must a DRM have before it could be considered a violation of vested rights? If the DRM server goes down because the publisher went broke, whom are going to sue? And the money back? You have no contract with the publisher, only with the shop that sold you the game. But they have nothing to do with the DRM servers. Who would risk an expensive and time consuming lawsuit with uncertain outcome for a game worth max. 50 euro? What if the publisher simply sells the rights on the game to some other company which never promised you anything regarding the DRM server? If you think about it, a lot of unanswered questions rise up. Those being only the first few.

Bottom line: DRM is a wager on the publisher's welfare and honesty with your game on the stake and nothing to win which you don't already have (the game itself). So ask yourself: Are you a gambler?

─quinoktium
29.04.2009, 01:50
@Bastardo
We're not going to get anywhere. I am a Rat, and I don't know what you are, but point is, there are certain things I want. The whole publisher-developer union is not one of those things. I oppose that union and I will oppose it in whatever way I can. I do not believe things like what EA has become should exist. If you believe otherwise, or you think it's none of your business, that's fine, but from my view, everything in the world I live in is my business. Why should I decide this and that? Because I can.

This is a highly philosophical discussion and I do not believe it belongs in this thread so we may as well stop here.

Bastardo
29.04.2009, 03:56
@ ─quinoktium
1) I can see what bugs you about publishing, but there aren't many options.
Can you tell me, how exactly are developers gonna pay for their salary, developing cost, shipping, publishing, etc., in your sponsorless scenario? I'm really curious.
2) Whoah, slow down. Don't straw-man on me. I didn't say anything about no EA. What's this, with me or against me?
3) Philosophical my boots... it's marketing and keeping your stomach full all the way to the end of the month whilst developing a full blown new-gen game.

We can go back to basement developing, no problem with me, but you tell the kids. :D

Bruell
29.04.2009, 04:25
My question here to Doblerec is:

Why does it concern you so much weather or not a hand full of punks illegally copy the game?

Is it the recession, and you think the general populous will be inclined to snag it for free?

Or is it that DS is in a financial limbo?

I definitely don't assume you are just, greedy?

Or is it just "in" to have to have a CP of that magnitude?

Do other games that yolu publish have any DRM protection?

For all the others, let's keep the bad language out of here, and yes I do care if I'm limited through a CP.

And I would never, spend money for a X-box or anything like it I wouldn't take one even if it was for free.

I actually think that having a DRM will lead to more piracy, some people (not including me!!!!) might take it as an excuse to obtain it illegally.

I would just not buy or play it!

─quinoktium
29.04.2009, 04:53
I'm not sure what's basement developing, but right now I would much rather support games like Mount&Blade as well as TC's and mods like Portal than companies that can't put their act together despite having money and working on the game full-time.

Next-gen game? You mean next-gen graphics? I get it, they're developing an engine. Who cares about the game, let's make it pretty. If I want to see next-gen graphics I can go play Crysis, K?

If devs want to start develop good games they need to drop the graphics craze. Then they'll suddenly find the time and money to make a great game. See Daggerfall. Elite. That game was huge. You can't tell me that they "can't" do something because I can go to 1990+ and find a shitload of amazing games with huge worlds and huge details, cool ideas, etc. Because back then, things were simpler and devs could develop their games instead of worrying about some toolkit they have to get for whatever reason which doesn't even allow them make the game moddable.

Bastardo
29.04.2009, 05:02
Oh my gawd, forget about it. And please don't lecture me about games.

Instead, tell me how developers are gonna pay themselves and their project without sponsorship. Publishing was there in the nineties too.

Michael RŘve
29.04.2009, 06:15
The whole publisher-developer union is not one of those things. I oppose that union and I will oppose it in whatever way I can.

You are welcome to offer us (Attn.: me) funding for our next game - whatever game that may be. Be prepared to dig deep into your pockets - 20 people don't live on thin air. And 20 people is a very small team for nowadays' games I might point out.

The 90s are gone. For good or for bad - they ARE gone. There are no full blown games that get done by 2 people working in some basement for 5 months any more. That's how I personally started (fascinating time to be sure!) - but that's frontier times - long gone. If you're a greybeard you can tell your grandchildren about it - but you cannot make a living of it now.

Get real.

Puppyonastik
29.04.2009, 13:14
The 90s are gone. For good or for bad - they ARE gone. There are no full blown games that get done by 2 people working in some basement for 5 months any more. That's how I personally started (fascinating time to be sure!) - but that's frontier times - long gone. If you're a greybeard you can tell your grandchildren about it - but you cannot make a living of it now.

Get real.

Take a look at http://www.dominions3.com/. Made by two guys in a surprisingly fast time. And they seem to be making a damn good living off of it other wise they probably wouldn't keep making content updates for 2+ years after each title.

Then you have LOVE (http://www.quelsolaar.com/love/index.html) which is a real feature heavy game made mostly by one guy. He's built his own free open source tool suite which lets him create content extremely fast. This demo video of the tools is really amazing: http://www.quelsolaar.com/love/tool_video.html (this game isn't finished yet, but I think the author's work is a great example how to lower the cost of and speed up the development process)

Sure they don't have stoke inducing levels of polygons per character model, and no they don't use middleware that costs $8,000-$100,000+. However, games like these are very much viable in the market and make a decent profit.

Using free and open source engines and smart, free, open source development tools, I think it would be very possible for PB to survive out there should it decide too.

No, PB would not be able to huge games like the Gothic series or Risen at first , but after a few small successful titles to build up some capital you could then try to hit it off. I could be wrong, maybe a using some kind of pre-order scheme like http://www.wolfire.com/ is doing to develop their new game (which Is a graphic whore's dream come true, I think ;P) PB could fund something large right off the bat. I mean you do have the fan base! I'd surely pre-order a few copies right away.


You are welcome to offer us (Attn.: me) funding for our next game - whatever game that may be. Be prepared to dig deep into your pockets - 20 people don't live on thin air. And 20 people is a very small team for nowadays' games I might point out.

Look at Tilted Mill Entertainment (who has a team of 20 people just like PB), who not to long ago made the very successful Hinterland with out the financial backing of a publisher.

Anyways, I like how the current setup is with Deep Silver, but if you guys wanted to go indie the option is there.

foobar
29.04.2009, 13:35
But still, PB would the one to carry the risk of failure. I can understand the developers. They sell the risk to the publisher for the price of letting him reap the major profits. If you have a family to take care of, you'd probably be tempted to go that way, too.

catalinux
29.04.2009, 13:48
This is why I hate Capitalism (Socialism/Communism as well). In the wilderness we would have more chances to survive and to live longer that in this crappy society where everything has to be limited or forbidden by stupid rules and we are nothing but slaves working for the state or corporations.

foobar
29.04.2009, 14:00
This is why I hate Capitalism (Socialism/Communism as well).

Better ideas are welcome. ;)


In the wilderness we would have more chances to survive and to live longer

Not really. Typical life expectancy in the stone age was lower than today.
Furthermore, we cannot go back to living as hunters and gatherers because the environment has changed too much (I do not refer to any human inflicted changes).

BTW: A man comes to a doctor and asks: "If I give up on drugs, alcohol and tabacco, will I live longer?"
And the doctor replies: "No. But it will feel longer." ;)


that in this crappy society where everything has to be limited or forbidden by stupid rules and we are nothing but slaves working for the state or corporations.

I'm not saying the current system is perfect. All I say that all the other ones we've tried so far obviously failed.

NicoDE
29.04.2009, 14:07
In the wilderness we would [...]There is no wilderness left, sorry ;)

catalinux
29.04.2009, 14:31
Better ideas? A-a----sm? :p I know, I know, it is not possible... There are more wilderness oases than you imagine ;)

@foobar: you know why typical life expectancy in the "stone age" was lower than today? because man's first enemy were the other men (they were fighting for resources, women... like today :)). in wilderness, man is on top of the trophic chain. man has no natural enemies (if he understands the psychology of predators he can co-habit with them in the same area). the man is the strongest animal because he has a powerful brain and he can make tools.

foobar
29.04.2009, 16:17
@foobar: you know why typical life expectancy in the "stone age" was lower than today? because man's first enemy were the other men (they were fighting for resources, women... like today :)).

And you want to go back there? Isn't civilisation cool in the way that you can live relatively safe from people who want to bust your head? And BTW: Don't forget parasites, diseases and accidents. It may sound romatic at first to life in a stone age or maybe middle ages world but as soon as you get cholera (or only toothaches) or you see your own child suffering from a heart valve defect, you'll probably wish yourself back into our modern world. ;)

Bruell
29.04.2009, 16:18
This is why I hate Capitalism (Socialism/Communism as well). In the wilderness we would have more chances to survive and to live longer that in this crappy society where everything has to be limited or forbidden by stupid rules and we are nothing but slaves working for the state or corporations.

the current crappy society is on the verge of great changes and conflicts.
you may see yourself lucky (or maybe not so lucky) to witness the whole impact of what has already started and is yet to come.
So sit back and enjoy the show....

catalinux
29.04.2009, 17:03
It may sound romatic at first to life in a stone age or maybe middle ages world but as soon as you get cholera (or only toothaches) or you see your own child suffering from a heart valve defect, you'll probably wish yourself back into our modern world. ;)

In my beloved country from EU named Romania, if you don't have money you die if you are suffering from anything. So I don't see the benefits of the actual social order. Capitalism is good only for rich people. The poor majority is brain-washed with soap-operas, football, pornography and so on :)

@bruell: all I'm seeing is an ill planet

vivaxardas
29.04.2009, 20:47
Better ideas? A-a----sm? :p I know, I know, it is not possible... There are more wilderness oases than you imagine ;)

@foobar: you know why typical life expectancy in the "stone age" was lower than today? because man's first enemy were the other men (they were fighting for resources, women... like today :)). in wilderness, man is on top of the trophic chain. man has no natural enemies (if he understands the psychology of predators he can co-habit with them in the same area). the man is the strongest animal because he has a powerful brain and he can make tools.

Man, it may be a good idea to take some antropology and archeology classes. Noble strong savage thing is from Conan books, not from human history.
Life expectancy in the stone age was between 30 to 35 years (confirmed by forensic study of human remains from stone age burial sites). Some people were killed, but not the majority. Major causes of death - accidents, child-birth for women, and deseases.
Teeth conditions of practically all of the sceletons are plain horroble. They used grind stones, and pieces of stones in the food grinded their teeth to the jaws. Their teeth and jaws had grossly infected cavities, and from about age 23 or even earlier they lived in constant pain. Eventually they got generalised infection, and died from internal organs failure.
They married and had their first children at 15, and grand-children - soon after 30. When they died at the age of 35, they looked like they were 60. At the age of 25 they looked like 40 years old.

Right now, at the end of 20 - beg. of 21 century, is THE BEST TIME for human race ( for those who belong to Western Civilisation - NA and Europe, actually), with the highest life-expectancy, a lot of free time, and A LOT OF entertainment. Even in Romania you have TV, movies, and computers to play games. All this glory and romantics of the past is an illusion created by writers of 19 century. Humans are just heaps of protein, with as much significance to the Universe as cocroaches, and more we protected from blind mother-nature behind science and technology, longer and healthier we live. If not every human on the planet can have it - well, too bad for them. Resourses are scarse - first came, first served.

Our planet is not ill - it is just an animal planet. One day humans will be gone (as 95% of species ever lived), and NOTHING significant will be lost, because there is none to begin with.
If you want to return to a Stone Age, there are still tribes in Amazon, and Calahari desert. You can always join them and experience their life first-hand.

On Topic: In the light of all said, I do not really care about copy protection. I may be more content with serial number thing, or less content with DRM, but I'll buy and enjoy the game anyway.

Bruell
30.04.2009, 05:42
!!! off topic!!!! just to continue the evolving philosophical discussion ...

@ catalinux: hey it's bad okay but not sooo bad, there are people out there who are making a difference. There are conscious communities, building alternative villages, building homes out of adobe bricks and straw bales using solar energy and permaculture gardens. Just look around the net and you shall find.

@vivaxardas: you are right, our ancestors in the early days or in medieval times had a much shorter live, but hey, some were happier than today's corporate slaves sitting in front of the brainwashing screen after a day of stress.
Also have you ever thought about getting old? I mean really old, like after 60 years old, when you get to "enjoy" your retirement?
You'll spend all your savings on doctor bills... unless you did not have to work hard like most of the folks.
But even then, your bodies functions lag and what much is there then to enjoy?
So why is it so great to reach that old age? I'm not sure if I want to become asold as my Grandmom
I'd rather live short and fast and have lots of fun.....

catalinux
30.04.2009, 12:26
last offtopic from me :)


Man, it may be a good idea to take some antropology and archeology classes. Noble strong savage thing is from Conan books, not from human history.

Ironically... I graduated History. I know a lot about archeology and anthropology. It is true that in the past people were more exposed to diseases. But they also had natural medicine. I know what I'm saying when I affirm that in the past, man's only enemy were other men. An isolated community could happily live in harmony with the nature. All the problems were caused by conflicts with other communities.

Don't tell me life expectancy was between 30 - 35 years. It's wrong. Infantile deaths were indeed numerous but also the causes. But there were numerous differences between human communities. Social, cultural, environmental aspects influenced humans life and life expectancy.

You can't simply say that humans lived shorter because of diseases, accidents and infantile deaths. And we should be happy we are living today, in an era with advanced medicine knowledge.

The majority of today diseases are caused by society. We are living in an environment we are not designed to live in. We are killed by today society.

Maladiq
30.04.2009, 13:50
Also have you ever thought about getting old? I mean really old, like after 60 years old, when you get to "enjoy" your retirement?


From a biological point of view, a man is considered young until he reaches 65. So considering someone who is 60 "really old" is... false:p

Have you guys noticd something? Doberlec retired from the forum as he was seen as the "abominable publisher" and they sent Michael to fight our antiDRM belief. Hey, our respect for PBs is great, but still no match to the DRM hatred.:D

Larisa
30.04.2009, 14:27
Doberlec retired from the forum as he was seen as the "abominable publisher" and they sent Michael to fight our antiDRM belief.

This official? If so, we were bad bad potential customers.

Bruell
30.04.2009, 16:34
From a biological point of view, a man is considered young until he reaches 65. So considering someone who is 60 "really old" is... false:p

Have you guys noticd something? Doberlec retired from the forum as he was seen as the "abominable publisher" and they sent Michael to fight our antiDRM belief. Hey, our respect for PBs is great, but still no match to the DRM hatred.:D

that's to bad, I liked to read his argumentation hope he'll come back here, didn't want to scare anyone away.

Kostaz
30.04.2009, 17:11
Have you guys noticd something? Doberlec retired from the forum as he was seen as the "abominable publisher" and they sent Michael to fight our antiDRM belief.I haven't seen Michael fighting our antiDRM stance but I'm sure he interfered to settle our "protests".

Hey, our respect for PBs is great, but still no match to the DRM hatred.Amen to that


BTW:If I could get my hand on the 3 bastards who voted for DRM with installation limit ....

Maladiq
30.04.2009, 20:20
BTW:If I could get my hand on the 3 bastards who voted for DRM with installation limit ....

I could assume those are doberlec as representing ds and michael and quy after ds asked them to.

And you are wrong. Indeed Michael is more tempered than dober, but he did try to take the part of DRM and DS. Well, part of the contract I guess.

quovadis
30.04.2009, 20:22
I could assume those are doberlec as representing ds and michael and quy after ds asked them to.

And you are wrong. Indeed Michael is more tempered than dober, but he did try to take the part of DRM and DS. Well, part of the contract I guess.

nope i am one :D

Maladiq
30.04.2009, 20:29
nope i am one :D

Well, my friend, prepare to get pawned by the mob:p

Ok, explain to us why did you do that? Well, a fresh oppinion can;t hurt:p I bet that you ticked the box by accident, as I don;t think that you are willing to buy a game that allows you to install it only 5 times in your whole lifetime.

quovadis
30.04.2009, 20:35
Well, my friend, prepare to get pawned by the mob:p

Ok, explain to us why did you do that? Well, a fresh oppinion can;t hurt:p I bet that you ticked the box by accident, as I don;t think that you are willing to buy a game that allows you to install it only 5 times in your whole lifetime.
like doberlec explained, you can install it 4 times each month and if you don't have enough installations you can ask for more. I dont have a problem with that because who will install this game more than 4 times in a month? not me.

edit: and isn't it possible that when u unistall the game you get a "credit" back? it is so with football manager 2009. I think that i got 5 installation but when i uninstall the game i still got 5 installation

Bastardo
30.04.2009, 21:51
But I think the option in the poll means limited installation in the sense of a max. number of installation in your whole life time. Like 4 times and that's it forever, time to trash the box and buy a new one (only if you like being a rape victim of course).

That's more like high priced renting than buying.

Puppyonastik
30.04.2009, 22:59
Have you guys noticd something? Doberlec retired from the forum as he was seen as the "abominable publisher" and they sent Michael to fight our antiDRM belief. Hey, our respect for PBs is great, but still no match to the DRM hatred.:D

That's a shame, I thought it was pretty impressive that they got involved in the discussion. I hope they are silent due to reconsideration of their position, rather than feeling chased out due to having a minority opinion.

Maladiq
30.04.2009, 23:38
That's a shame, I thought it was pretty impressive that they got involved in the discussion. I hope they are silent due to reconsideration of their position, rather than feeling chased out due to having a minority opinion.

Well, that would be completely imature and shitty of them. They should have known it isn;t good to upset the ones who would actualy buy a game. But since for them we are only "kids who don;t give a f*ck"... It is sad. Sounds to me like JW reloaded...

Bruell
01.05.2009, 00:06
like doberlec explained, you can install it 4 times each month and if you don't have enough installations you can ask for more. I dont have a problem with that because who will install this game more than 4 times in a month? not me.

edit: and isn't it possible that when u unistall the game you get a "credit" back? it is so with football manager 2009. I think that i got 5 installation but when i uninstall the game i still got 5 installation

Dude, what you're saying is totally limiting, I don't want to reinstall a game 4 nor 5 times a month, but if for any reason I had to, I want to be entitled to do so.
And even if you don't care to reinstall the game several times, does not mean that you have to be pro DRM! sweet Jesus, get real!!! žburn

Maladiq
01.05.2009, 00:23
Dude, what you're saying is totally limiting, I don't want to reinstall a game 4 nor 5 times a month, but if for any reason I had to, I want to be entitled to do so.
And even if you don't care to reinstall the game several times, does not mean that you have to be pro DRM! sweet Jesus, get real!!! žburn

Indeed. It is just like buying a car with a limit of 50k km a year. It is not likely that you break that limit, but it may happen. And if it happens, I am entiteled not to plead the producer for a few hundred km more:mad:

SlamDunk
01.05.2009, 12:17
I have never had any problems with DRM, so it's all the same what solution Deep Silver will go for.

Larisa
01.05.2009, 13:39
Indeed. It is just like buying a car with a limit of 50k km a year. It is not likely that you break that limit, but it may happen. And if it happens, I am entiteled not to plead the producer for a few hundred km more:mad:

But can you share your car with 10000 people, all using it at the same time so they won't have to pay 15k euros for it?

Maladiq
01.05.2009, 19:01
But can you share your car with 10000 people, all using it at the same time so they won't have to pay 15k euros for it?

If I buy it with 2 other people, each paying 5k for it, than each one of us should use it when he needs it or when others don;t have anything to do with it. Of course, if they use it for the same thing at the same time (like a band using a van), or if there happens to be a bend in the space-time, it should eb no problem for them to use it at the same time.

Only problem is decency, as it would be idiotic to get 1000 guys each peaying 15 euros for the car.

Larisa
01.05.2009, 19:49
Only problem is decency, as it would be idiotic to get 1000 guys each peaying 15 euros for the car.

Yes, that's not possible (because of practical reasons and also because physics doesn't allow it yet) with a car, to share it with a very large number of people. But with software, it is.


If it would've been possible, probably car manufacturers would've imposed all kinds of checks to verify ownership.

Bruell
01.05.2009, 19:56
it all boils down to the same old question:

By paying euro 50 or what ever for the game, are we actually buying the game?

Or, with DRM and limitations, are we renting it for a high price?

Neither PB nor DS have made a clear statement yet.

All I know, weather or not a customer should be concerned of what they get for their money, is the fact that I do care and do NOT want to be fooled into a shady contract.
I think it is time to get this mess into order again. It's either I buy, I own (and install it to my hearts content on what ever computer I have) or it's I rent, I don't own.
And let it be known, I have several computers of different configurations.
So with DRM am I allowed to install the game on only one computer? Is it illegal to test a game on several Rigs?
Or do I have the right to install the game on more then one computer (but only run it on one at a time?)?

I just hate this confusion and fine print, I pay for the software I use! And I care about my rights.

Maladiq
01.05.2009, 20:03
it all boils down to the same old question:

By paying euro 50 or what ever for the game, are we actually buying the game?

Or, with DRM and limitations, are we renting it for a high price?

Neither PB nor DS have made a clear statement yet.

All I know, weather or not a customer should be concerned of what they get for their money, is the fact that I do care and do NOT want to be fooled into a shady contract.
I think it is time to get this mess into order again. It's either I buy, I own (and install it to my hearts content on what ever computer I have) or it's I rent, I don't own.
And let it be known, I have several computers of different configurations.
So with DRM am I allowed to install the game on only one computer? Is it illegal to test a game on several Rigs?
Or do I have the right to install the game on more then one computer (but only run it on one at a time?)?

I just hate this confusion and fine print, I pay for the software I use! And I care about my rights.

Doberlec already said that "customers DON'T own the games they buy", or something more like "I can;t believe people still think they own the games they buy". Can't find the post right now, but i;m pretty sure that is what he said.

vivaxardas
01.05.2009, 20:10
Doberlec already said that "customers DON'T own the games they buy", or something more like "I can;t believe people still think they own the games they buy". Can't find the post right now, but i;m pretty sure that is what he said.

Yes, I concur. Also, it is silly to claim that publisher violates your rights when he includes a copy protection you do not like. If you do not like some feature of a game, don't buy it. It is as simple as this. Let the publisher decide for himself how many customers he will loose.

Bastardo
01.05.2009, 20:18
Also, it is silly to claim that publisher violates your rights when he includes a copy protection you do not like. If you do not like some feature of a game, don't buy it. It is as simple as this. Let the publisher decide for himself how many customers he will loose.That's why I don't understand all this moral talk... we can give our opinions as potential costumers, DRM sucks and all, but nobody forces anybody to buy their game. If you're willing to spend the money good for you, otherwise don't, all the same.

Maladiq
01.05.2009, 21:26
That's why I don't understand all this moral talk... we can give our opinions as potential costumers, DRM sucks and all, but nobody forces anybody to buy their game. If you're willing to spend the money good for you, otherwise don't, all the same.

Because we want to buy and play the game. And DRM is stopping us from doing that.

TheDoctor
01.05.2009, 21:37
Don't worry, people. With DRM, Risen will be cracked, and our worries will end the same day. Still DeepSilver should make an official poll about DRM usage, and see if they can come up with a smarter solution if the results are overwhelmingly negative.

I think DeepSilver is a good company. They should do good stuff like this.

Maladiq
01.05.2009, 22:17
Don't worry, people. With DRM, Risen will be cracked, and our worries will end the same day. Still DeepSilver should make an official poll about DRM usage, and see if they can come up with a smarter solution if the results are overwhelmingly negative.

I think DeepSilver is a good company. They should do good stuff like this.

Poll concerning DRM in general, and not only the case of RIsen.

TheDoctor
01.05.2009, 22:35
Poll concerning DRM in general, and not only the case of RIsen.Actually, I don't really care about any other PC game than Risen. :rolleyes:

But that's just fine. DRM seems to be generally evil.

Bastardo
01.05.2009, 22:50
Maladiq, as I said it's good to speak out, but nobody has any obligation towards us.

Maladiq
01.05.2009, 22:59
Maladiq, as I said it's good to speak out, but nobody has any obligation towards us.

Not towards me. A publisher has obligations towards clients as much as clients have obligations towards publishers. As long as I treat them with respect and decide to pay money for their product instead of just getting it for free, I demand to be treated like a respectable person and not as a potential thief. I want to be rewarded for being a good guy and giving them money for something I could take for free, not having obstacles placed in my way. They (the publishers) own us decency, not crap talk about how they own our copies of the game. So you see, my firend, that is why we should fight: because we are treated like numbers, and not as parteners (because when buying a game, one makes a deal, and that makes us parteners).

Bastardo
01.05.2009, 23:09
(because when buying a game, one makes a deal, and that makes us parteners).
Exactly, and if you agree with the terms, you agree with the terms. ;)
You have to boycott if you don't like 'em.

vivaxardas
01.05.2009, 23:12
When now I want to fly somewhere in the USA, I have to pass a security check. The same is in banks, government buildings, and such. I am treated as a potential terror suspect, or a criminal (even though I am a tax-paying law-abiding citizen of the US, who deserves to be treated with due respect). Then what?
They provide services, and then can impose any restrictions they want. Goods belong to them, and we can use them only if we agree on their conmditions. If we don't, nothing bad will happen to us. In our case, we are talking about ENTERTAINMENT, not a dire necessity, like food, water, or shelter. We are not denied anything really necessary for continuation of our lives, and we do not have a right to be entertaind. I really want to lot of things, but by seweral reasons I can't aford them, or I disagree with imposed restrictions. It may make me unhappy, but still none of my rights are violated.

Also, it is a common misconception that obligations create corresponding rights. Even if a publisher has some sort of obligation in these matters towards us (and I don't think it does), it does not create a right in us to demand it.
Example: Rich corporations, like Microsoft, fairly uncontroversially have an obligation to donate money to charity, to help schools with comps, and such. But it does not follow that any charity organisation, or a school, or even all of them collectively, have a right to a share of Microsoft money (and that they can claim these money from Microsoft).

Even if a publisher is obliged to some policy concerning CP, and it does not fulfill its obligations, we may call it greedy, callous, and such, but we cannot demand anything from it, as we cannot demand from MS to donate money.

The best incentive for a publisher is a potential loss of customers. No morality involved here.
You cannot always get what you want, and the way you want it. And it does not make this world evil.

Maladiq
01.05.2009, 23:49
Exactly, and if you agree with the terms, you agree with the terms. ;)
You have to boycott if you don't like 'em.

Well, let's say you want to buy a car, but the rule would be to drive it only for 6 months. You don;t actually need a car, as there is public transport, right? But you would still like to have that car. With no limits. It is stupid saying that agreeing with some terms makes those terms alright.


When now I want to fly somewhere in the USA, I have to pass a security check. The same is in banks, government buildings, and such. I am treated as a potential terror suspect, or a criminal (even though I am a tax-paying law-abiding citizen of the US, who deserves to be treated with due respect). Then what?
They provide services, and then can impose any restrictions they want. Goods belong to them, and we can use them only if we agree on their conmditions. If we don't, nothing bad will happen to us. In our case, we are talking about ENTERTAINMENT, not a dire necessity, like food, water, or shelter. We are not denied anything really necessary for continuation of our lives, and we do not have a right to be entertaind. I really want to lot of things, but by seweral reasons I can't aford them, or I disagree with imposed restrictions. It may make me unhappy, but still none of my rights are violated.

Also, it is a common misconception that obligations create corresponding rights. Even if a publisher has some sort of obligation in these matters towards us (and I don't think it does), it does not create a right in us to demand it.
Example: Rich corporations, like Microsoft, fairly uncontroversially have an obligation to donate money to charity, to help schools with comps, and such. But it does not follow that any charity organisation, or a school, or even all of them collectively, have a right to a share of Microsoft money (and that they can claim these money from Microsoft).

Even if a publisher is obliged to some policy concerning CP, and it does not fulfill its obligations, we may call it greedy, callous, and such, but we cannot demand anything from it, as we cannot demand from MS to donate money.

The best incentive for a publisher is a potential loss of customers. No morality involved here.
You cannot always get what you want, and the way you want it. And it does not make this world evil.

Excuse me if I missed some point, but shouldn;t every person be considered and treated like innocent until proven guilty? No, I would not be ok to have some airport dude looking through my bags and pointing a metal detector betwen my legs to make sure I don;t have any hidden weapons. It is the same with any copy protection in general. You ARE a pirate and that is why you have to put up with protection. Not fair, but bearable. But DRM is far beyond any common sense.


I will take an extreme example to show my point of view.

Let's take a guy named Jim. He is a decent, conscienceous person, but from time to time, the only thing that would keep him awake in the morning would be a cup of the cofee Y. But he is only entiteled to a cup after he completes a 7 pages report about himself. Well, of course, he could find another job that doesn;t require being there at the first hour in the morning every single day, but he likes that specific job. Why does he have to write a 7 pages report every time he feels sleepy?

Get my point, guys?:dnuhr:

Larisa
02.05.2009, 00:08
It is stupid saying that agreeing with some terms makes those terms alright.

And it is stupid saying that disagreeing with some terms makes those terms evil.


Why does he have to write a 7 pages report every time he feels sleepy?

'Cause life is a beach.

Bruell
02.05.2009, 05:14
Doberlec already said that "customers DON'T own the games they buy", or something more like "I can;t believe people still think they own the games they buy". Can't find the post right now, but i;m pretty sure that is what he said.

Woooooha!! that's a good one...;)


edit: If I'll buy the game, DRM or not, I definitely will regard it as my sole property! (alas, in the case of DRM I'm not buying!)

Maladiq
02.05.2009, 11:28
'Cause life is a beach.

I thought kitties don;t like beaches:p